Colors of Blue and Gold

[Martin Weidmann]

False premise.  The 2020 election was conducted after the election laws were changed in every single state in the months just before the election.  It produced a statistical outlier - more votes cast for Biden than in any election in US history.   Most of those votes were cast via early voting methods created just before the election.  If the reverse had happened, and Trump was elected in 2020 based upon widespread and last-minute changes in how the election was conducted, the leftists would have staged a civil war.  They spent all four years of the Trump presidency trying to undermine the 2016 election with a false conspiracy theory about Russian collusion.  Trump overstated the situation by claiming the election was stolen.  It was not.  The laws were changed.  So Biden won an unfair election.  There were certainly valid reasons to criticize how the 2020 election was conducted including censorship and disinformation by social media and the justice department to cover up the Hunter laptop story.

False premise.

There is no false premise. Trump tried to overthrow the election results, because he lost. Period!

If the reverse had happened, and Trump was elected in 2020 based upon widespread and last-minute changes in how the election was conducted, the leftists would have staged a civil war.

BS. It's historical fact that George W. Bush, with the help of his brother, stole the election from Al Gore. For the sake of the country Gore ultimately accepted what had happened. Trump would never have done such a thing.

Trump overstated the situation by claiming the election was stolen.  It was not. The laws were changed.  So Biden won an unfair election. 

More BS. Biden won under the existing rules. That makes his win a fair one. And right wingers complaining about changing the laws and making new rules for elections is hilarious given the massive gerrymandering they have been engaged in for decades!

There were certainly valid reasons to criticize how the 2020 election was conducted including censorship and disinformation by social media and the justice department to cover up the Hunter laptop story.

Elections are a dirty business. Always have been and always will be. You don't have to like it. But let me ask you this; if a Republican wins an election as a consequence of recent gerrymandering would you consider that win to be a fair one?

[Rick Plant]

Taking a time machine back to the Trump foreign policy disaster.

Trump’s National Security and Foreign Policy Failures: Year One
Twelve months into Trump’s presidency, America is more isolated and less safe.
https://www.americanprogress.org/article/trumps-national-security-foreign-policy-failures-year-one/

[Joe Elliott]

Which could be negotiated today if there was anyone with a functioning brain in the Biden administration.  For "as long as it takes" is not a policy when you don't define "it" and if "it" means the Russians are defeated on the battlefield and agree to pull out all their forces, that will mean war for years.

True enough. But we don't need Trump to negotiate this. We already had someone with a brain to negotiate this. Bill Clinton.

Back in the 1990's President Clinton negotiated with Russia, that in exchange for Ukraine surrendering all it's nuclear weapons to Russia, Russia would guarantee Ukraine's borders. And would never invade Ukraine. And Ukraine kept it's end of the bargain.

And so, there is no need for Trump to arrange for the peace and the security of Ukraine's borders. This has already been done.

Questions:

What, exactly, would Trump accomplish if he became President and helped negotiated peace between Ukraine and Russia?

Would it not be the sort of peace that Chamberlain negotiated with Hitler in 1938 to achieve peace in Europe?

[Joe Elliott]

BS. It's historical fact that George W. Bush, with the help of his brother, stole the election from Al Gore. For the sake of the country Gore ultimately accepted what had happened. Trump would never have done such a thing.

I respectfully disagree.

What is not clearly understood, even today, is that Al Gore did not seek a fair recount of all of Florida, to determine who really won in Florida. Al Gore sought an obviously biased recount designed for him to win, regardless of who really won Florida.

Up until December 8, 2000, Al Gore sought a recount, not of all 67 counties, but of just 4 counties. These four counties contained about a third of Florida's voters.
37.5 per cent of the votes for Gore came from these four counties
25.0 per cent of the votes for Bush came from these four counties

So, in theory, such a recount will find 37.5 per cent of all the ballots for Gore missed by the machines. But only 25 per cent of Bush's. In theory, this gives Gore the same advantage of a recount of all of Florida that is geared to finding 100 per cent of Gore's ballots, but only 87.5 per cent of Bush's. A recount of these four counties, gives to Gore, the sort of advantage that if all the votes, in all the counties, would be recounted by 8 judges. And 7 of the judges were fair and impartial. But one of the 8 was corrupt. Any Gore ballot he found would be counted as a Gore vote. But any Bush ballot he found would not be recognized and would be set aside as a non vote. Unacceptable.

And I am not a big George W. Bush fan. I did not vote from him in 2000. The two worst presidents since Nixon were George W. Bush and Trump. Although Trump by a very wide margin. The worst President by far. The only fascist President we have ever elected. I hope nothing like this ever happens again. Gore would have been a much better President. But Bush won Florida in 2000.

 * * * * *

As an aside, can we please go back to having our Presidential candidates chosen by men in smoke filled rooms? And not by primaries. While this method had it's critics, it never produced a candidate who was a would-be dictator. The method by primaries seems prone to do exactly that, in 2016 and all the signs indicate it will do so again in 2024. And will likely do so in the future. I'm just asking for some method that won't do that. That's all.

Are Democrats immune to this? I don't think so. Any time in the future, if some party thinks the voting trend is going against them, they may decide to try for an Authoritarian government. Republican voters of today think the voting trend is going against them. So they support Trump. And if this effort is successful, they won't have to worry about future elections going against them.

If this effort ends up failing, who's to say that 100 years from now, that Democrats and Republicans won't change drastically. After all, 140 years ago, the Democrats were the Jim Crow party. Maybe 100 years from now, the next threat to democracy will come from Democratic primary voters?

 * * * * *

Now, back to my main argument. Let's deal with the usual excuses:

* The law and Florida was messed up. There was no way to get a recount of all of Florida. Gore did the best he could.
False. Counting all undervotes and overvotes was practicable under the "Protest phase" of Florida law. But quite practicable under the "Contest phase", which Gore could have used, but did not so he could have his biased four county recount.

* Gore did try to get all of Florida recounted.
Yes. Starting on December 8. After his four county recount effort had finally totally failed in court, and he had no other option. But they only had four days, until December 12 to get this recount done, way to soon to have a fair, uniform recount done. Gore's lawyers had argued for weeks that December 12 was, or probably was, the absolute deadline.

* The newspaper's recount show Gore would have won a fair recount of all undervotes and all overvotes of all of Florida.
Yes, but Gore did not pursue that. So Bush, nor his brother stole the election from Gore. You could say that Gore stole the election from Gore. Or even that Bush and Gore stole the election from Gore. But never say that Bush stole the election from Gore. Because that would be a lie.

Gore got the biased Florida State Supreme Court to support this biased four county recount. As of December 8, the only remedy was for this same biased court to administer the recount of Florida. I did not trust that court to do that. Not after they showed their true colors in November 2000. And to do so in just four days. Which they had not set up any sort of fair recount where each county would follow the same procedure, like to count all "hanging chad" ballots the same way in all counties. Which could result in as biased a recount as the one that same court pursued in November.

The Republicans have presented a false version of history of the election of 2020. But Democrats have presented a false version of history of the election of 2000.

Question:

What information have I provided is false?

[Richard Smith]

So if the voters elect Trump in the 2024 election that is your definition of the end of democracy?  Good grief.  What twisted logic.

No. It's an undeniable truth you're just not willing to accept. How can a guy who tried to overthrow a fair election not be considered a threat to democracy?

I explained it.  That is a false premise.  Trump believed that he won the election.  He was not trying to "steal" it.  That is leftist propaganda.  You can argue that Trump was unreasonable in reaching his conclusion that he won the election but not that was trying to steal it.  And, for the reasons already explained, there were a number of reasons to be concerned about how the 2020 election was conducted.  The rules were changed in the months leading up to the election.  We know that media and social media outlets suppressed information that was harmful to Biden.  There was censorship and politicalization of the COVID pandemic.  The net result was an outlier election with more votes for an elderly man who almost never left his house than for any other candidate in American history.  If that had happened in some third world country, every sane person would have laughed at the result.

As President, Trump was the most powerful man in the world.  He was commander and chief of the military.  But the leftist media would have us believe that his plan to overthrow the election was to have some random hillbillies roam about the Capitol like tourists.  It is laughable.  No doubt some crimes were committed like vandalism and trespass but that was no effort to overthrow the election.  The leftists used the event - as they did the pandemic - to promote a fake narrative.

[Martin Weidmann]

I explained it.  That is a false premise.  Trump believed that he won the election.  He was not trying to "steal" it.  That is leftist propaganda.  You can argue that Trump was unreasonable in reaching his conclusion that he won the election but not that was trying to steal it.  And, for the reasons already explained, there were a number of reasons to be concerned about how the 2020 election was conducted.  The rules were changed in the months leading up to the election.  We know that media and social media outlets suppressed information that was harmful to Biden.  There was censorship and politicalization of the COVID pandemic.  The net result was an outlier election with more votes for an elderly man who almost never left his house than for any other candidate in American history.  If that had happened in some third world country, every sane person would have laughed at the result.

As President, Trump was the most powerful man in the world.  He was commander and chief of the military.  But the leftist media would have us believe that his plan to overthrow the election was to have some random hillbillies roam about the Capitol like tourists.  It is laughable.  No doubt some crimes were committed like vandalism and trespass but that was no effort to overthrow the election.  The leftists used the event - as they did the pandemic - to promote a fake narrative.

Trump believed that he won the election.

Even if he did believe that, it still doesn't alter the fact that he lost and it most certainly doesn't give him the right to try to overthrow the results of the election.

He was not trying to "steal" it.  That is leftist propaganda.

BS. That's exactly what he was trying to do...... When you start calling officials and ask to "find" 11.000 + votes (that did not exist) and you are trying to use fake electors, you are trying to steal the election. To deny this is just foolish.

And, for the reasons already explained, there were a number of reasons to be concerned about how the 2020 election was conducted. 

If he didn't agree with the new rules, why did he not object before the election? That would have been the right way to do it. I seriously doubt he would have complained about the rules if he had won the election.

As President, Trump was the most powerful man in the world.  He was commander and chief of the military.  But the leftist media would have us believe that his plan to overthrow the election was to have some random hillbillies roam about the Capitol like tourists.  It is laughable.

Sure, that would be laughable, but they were not hillbillie tourist. Maybe some went there for a peaceful demonstration but guys like the Proud boys (Stand down and stand by) didn't go there for peaceful protest. They prepared weeks in advance and they are now paying the price in court, as did a few hundered other people so far. What is truly laughable is the pathetic right wing attempt to pretend it was nothing more than some tourists who were sightseeing at the Capitol.

And, yes, at that time Trump was the most powerful man in the world as well commander and chief of the military but that doesn't mean he could overthrow the rightfully elected government by himself. He needed the help of the military and he wasn't getting it. To protect democracy it takes brave men to stand up to a wannabe dictator! That's why Trump figured he needed his own private militia.

No doubt some crimes were committed like vandalism and trespass but that was no effort to overthrow the election.

For crying out loud, he wanted Mike Pence to refuse to certify Biden as the winner of the election. How is that not an attempt to overthrow the election? What planet are you from?

[Rick Plant]

The United States will always defend our allies and our national security. Only traitors would be against defending our national interests and our democracy.

Pentagon confirms Ukraine downed Russian missile with Patriot system
https://thehill.com/policy/defense/3996387-pentagon-confirms-ukraine-downed-russian-missile-with-patriot-system/or