Are these two photos legit?

[Charles Collins]

According to Alyea that's what happened but let's not get too far ahead of ourselves...

Both Alyea and Mooney independently reported their first-hand eye-witness accounts of Fritz entering the SN, picking up the shell casings and examining them.
As far as both men are concerned Fritz was first officer to do this.
This is what both men reported.

The eye-witness account of Fritz giving the shells to Studebaker is Alyea's.

You stated earlier that there are no photos of the shell casings before anyone moved them. So, it appears that you believe that the shells were removed, then later staged for photographs? Is this what you are suggesting?

[Charles Collins]

Hi Charles, @2:59 in the following YT video which was broadcast later that day and for some reason is "age restricted"? we see footage that Alyea filmed on the 6th floor and even though half of the footage is barely watchable, WFAATV obviously being desperate to broadcast whatever they could showed Alyea's film to what appears through to it's very end and I see Oswald's murder weapon, people standing around, a stairway direction sign, a detective holding a bottle but I don't see any close-ups of Fritz holding shells?

EDIT I was thinking back to footage of Day removing the rifle from the floor and it's not in the footage above. So after a quick search, on DVP's YT video site I found some additional Alyea footage but still no close up of Carcano hulls. It's interesting that WFAATV didn't initially show the more news worthy footage of the rifle being recovered and instead gave us a stack of flickering images?

JohnM

Thanks John, yes it does seem like if they had footage of the shells in a close-up that they would have wanted to broadcast it ASAP.

[Dan O'meara]

You stated earlier that there are no photos of the shell casings before anyone moved them. So, it appears that you believe that the shells were removed, then later staged for photographs? Is this what you are suggesting?

Fritz picked up the shell casings before Day and Studebaker arrived.
It is a necessary conclusion that any photos taken by Day or Studebaker of the shell casings do not show them in their original positions.

[Charles Collins]

Fritz picked up the shell casings before Day and Studebaker arrived.
It is a necessary conclusion that any photos taken by Day or Studebaker of the shell casings do not show them in their original positions.

I have a difficult time taking Alyea’s accounts seriously. Here’s a small part of what Allyea reportedly had to say in the corrections section of this webpage concerning Connie’s book:


Over thirty minutes later, after the rifle was discovered and the crime lab
arrived, Capt. Fritz reached into his pocket and handed the casings to
Det. Studebaker to include in the photographs he would take of the
sniper's nest crime scene. We stayed at the rifle site to watch Lt. Day
dust the rifle. You have seen my footage of this. Studebaker never saw
the original placement of the casings so he tossed them on the floor and
photographed them. Det. Studebaker was alone at this site until after
Lt. Day left the building with the rifle. We in the search team went to
the sniper's site. Studebaker had already photographed the casings on
the floor and was busy dusting the pop bottle when we arrived. The
casings were no longer on the floor. I never saw them again.



The shadows on CE 511 indicate that it was taken near the time of 1:20 pm. Not over thirty minutes later.


Mooney’s account has no credible person to back it up, as far as I am concerned. And it conflicts with the accounts of the other officers. I cannot believe that Fritz could have done that and no one else besides Mooney saw it.

You can believe that nonsense if you want to. But don’t expect me to.

[Dan O'meara]

I have a difficult time taking Alyea’s accounts seriously. Here’s a small part of what Allyea reportedly had to say in the corrections section of this webpage concerning Connie’s book:


Over thirty minutes later, after the rifle was discovered and the crime lab
arrived, Capt. Fritz reached into his pocket and handed the casings to
Det. Studebaker to include in the photographs he would take of the
sniper's nest crime scene. We stayed at the rifle site to watch Lt. Day
dust the rifle. You have seen my footage of this. Studebaker never saw
the original placement of the casings so he tossed them on the floor and
photographed them. Det. Studebaker was alone at this site until after
Lt. Day left the building with the rifle. We in the search team went to
the sniper's site. Studebaker had already photographed the casings on
the floor and was busy dusting the pop bottle when we arrived. The
casings were no longer on the floor. I never saw them again.



The shadows on CE 511 indicate that it was taken near the time of 1:20 pm. Not over thirty minutes later.


Mooney’s account has no credible person to back it up, as far as I am concerned. And it conflicts with the accounts of the other officers. I cannot believe that Fritz could have done that and no one else besides Mooney saw it.

You can believe that nonsense if you want to. But don’t expect me to.

Mooney is a credible person and his first-hand eye-witness testimony is independently corroborated by Alyea. A large part of the credibility of both is that they are not Fritz's men and would feel no obligation to cover for his actions.
As I've said, you have no problem with Fritz doing exactly the same thing with the live round.
You have no problem with the Sniper's Perch being re-staged.
You have no problem that other key evidence such as the rifle "bag" and BRW's lunch remains were not photographed in their original positions.
And who are these other officers with conflicting accounts? Remember, only Fritz, Sims, Boyd, Mooney and Alyea are present when it happens, so who are these credible officers you put so much faith in?

Out of interest, what shadows in CE 511 are you using to gauge the time?

[Charles Collins]

Mooney is a credible person and his first-hand eye-witness testimony is independently corroborated by Alyea. A large part of the credibility of both is that they are not Fritz's men and would feel no obligation to cover for his actions.
As I've said, you have no problem with Fritz doing exactly the same thing with the live round.
You have no problem with the Sniper's Perch being re-staged.
You have no problem that other key evidence such as the rifle "bag" and BRW's lunch remains were not photographed in their original positions.
And who are these other officers with conflicting accounts? Remember, only Fritz, Sims, Boyd, Mooney and Alyea are present when it happens, so who are these credible officers you put so much faith in?

Out of interest, what shadows in CE 511 are you using to gauge the time?

Mooney is a credible person and his first-hand eye-witness testimony is independently corroborated by Alyea. A large part of the credibility of both is that they are not Fritz's men and would feel no obligation to cover for his actions.

Mooney’s account is at odds with others in several aspects. One of the more glaring is that he claims to have stuck his head out of the sniper’s window and hollered and saw Fritz on the ground below. The problem is that by all other accounts Fritz was on the seventh floor at this time. Alyea’s statement in December of 1963 contains none of the numerous fantasies that he has come up with in more recent years. If his 1963 account contained Fritz picking up the shells and showing them for a camera close-up, or there was any evidence that such a close-up was actually filmed, then you might have some corroboration for Mooney’s claim.


As I've said, you have no problem with Fritz doing exactly the same thing with the live round.

Day testified that he was the one who picked the live round up, dusted it for fingerprints, initialed it, and then turned it over to Fritz. Where do you get the idea that Fritz picked it up?


You have no problem with the Sniper's Perch being re-staged

I don’t know all the reasons why they might have wanted to reconstruct the positions of some of the boxes. But I could guess at a few reasons. And they didn’t try to hide the fact that they did. I see nothing sinister about it.


You have no problem that other key evidence such as the rifle "bag" and BRW's lunch remains were not photographed in their original positions.

Studebaker had less than two-months experience in that department. And given all the other circumstances, it is understandable how he could have missed taking enough photos. Just exactly where do you believe the original position of BRW’s lunch remains were?


And who are these other officers with conflicting accounts? Remember, only Fritz, Sims, Boyd, Mooney and Alyea are present when it happens, so who are these credible officers you put so much faith in?

There were many officers on the sixth floor when the evidence was found.  Clyde A. Haywood, E.D. Brewer, Marvin Johnson, to name a few. Do you believe Fritz erected a Star Wars type of cloaking shield to prevent anyone else on that floor from seeing them? Gerald Hill was there when the shells were found. He was actually photographed with his head out a window hollering for the crime scene investigators. (No one apparently photographed or reported Mooney’s claim to doing this.   ) Hill left the sixth floor before Fritz got there. But Hill’s account (to that point in time) differs from Mooney’s in several aspects. Mooney’s account of where the chicken bones were found differs from every other account that I have seen. You can put your faith in Mooney, but I cannot do the same.


Out of interest, what shadows in CE 511 are you using to gauge the time?

The shadows are more readily apparent in a copy of the photo on page 525 of “Pictures of the Pain” by Richard B. Trask. By the way, this photo is also full frame, and shows the third shell near the bottom. The shadows are cast by the post that divides the two windows and the window sill of the sniper’s nest window onto the brick ledge just inside the window. The angle between these two shadows changes with the time much like a sundial.

[John Iacoletti]