The lapel flip -- what did i miss?

[Dan O'meara]

It is not a matter of  "logic". It is a matter of evidence.  The evidence is that JFK and JBC are reacting at the same time although it does appear that JFK began reacting before he appears from behind the sign. But the evidence is also that JFK reacted to being hit on the first shot while JBC reacted to hearing it and fearing an assassination was unfolding.  The evidence also is that the last two shots were close together with the second shot sounding after the mid point between 1 and 3.

As far as the supposed lapel flip is concerned, how do you explain the similar appearance of the jacket in z222 and z224?  On what basis can you eliminate movement of the right arm across his front as the cause of the jacket movement?  His right arm is certainly moving there.

"It is not a matter of  "logic". It is a matter of evidence."

I like the way you've separated "logic" and "evidence", it is something represented in a lot of your arguments.
In my post I have applied logic to a very powerful piece of evidence, actual video footage of the moment JBC is shot through the chest.
This piece of evidence is, in my opinion, far more significant than witness testimony which can be totally unreliable. It is this contradictory and unreliable aspect of witness testimony that many "researchers" use to prop up their treasured arguments, no matter how wild.
Let's have a look at the close up again:



Because you will not relinquish your debunked shot at z271 you cannot have a shot passing through JBC at this point. The movement of his jacket is unbelievably rapid and significant. The radical difference between the two jacket positions occurs in 55 milliseconds - this is the point - any explanation must take into account the profound rapidity of the jacket which is why 'the wind' explanation fails.
So how can you explain this movement:

"On what basis can you eliminate movement of the right arm across his front as the cause of the jacket movement?  His right arm is certainly moving there."

JBC's right arm is not moving across his front at this moment, that is something you've invented in a desperate attempt to explain the incredibly rapid movement of JBC's jacket.
The frame below is z223:

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This is how JBC is sat as the limo passes behind the Stemmons sign. There is no movement of his arm, no rapid movement and no movement across his front.
At z225 JBC's right arm starts to suddenly thrash around - a result of being shot and not, as you would have us believe, because he was concerned for the President.

You can twist witness evidence all you want but you cannot explain away the evidence you can see with your own eyes in this instance.

[Andrew Mason]

"It is not a matter of  "logic". It is a matter of evidence."

I like the way you've separated "logic" and "evidence", it is something represented in a lot of your arguments.

It is a matter of looking at all the evidence. Logic is based on premises.  Premises have to be based on ALL the evidence. Not just one piece of evidence and someone's interpretation of it that does not fit the rest of the evidence. That is all I am saying.  Your premises do not fit the evidence.

Because you will not relinquish your debunked shot at z271 you cannot have a shot passing through JBC at this point. The movement of his jacket is unbelievably rapid and significant. The radical difference between the two jacket positions occurs in 55 milliseconds - this is the point - any explanation must take into account the profound rapidity of the jacket which is why 'the wind' explanation fails.
So how can you explain this movement:

"On what basis can you eliminate movement of the right arm across his front as the cause of the jacket movement?  His right arm is certainly moving there."

JBC's right arm is not moving across his front at this moment, that is something you've invented in a desperate attempt to explain the incredibly rapid movement of JBC's jacket.
The frame below is z223:

The arm most certainly is moving. From z222 to z223 it drops to the right and then moves continuously across his body.  From z222 to z223, the amount of jacket covering the shirt decreases, from z223 to z224 it increases.   At z222 we see the hand, at z223 it disappears below the top of the door, in z224 we still don't see it, in z225 we see the hand again and in z226 we can see the hat (blurry but confirmed as the hat in z230):


If a bullet made the jacket move from z223 to z224, how do you explain the change from z222 to z223?


It appears that the jacket lapel is covering more of his shirt in z222 than in z223 and this appears to occur at the same time as his right hand drops from view.  So if the jacket can move from covering the shirt to exposing the shirt in one frame due to the movement of the hand, logic would tell you that that it could do the reverse in one frame due to the movement of the hand.

[Chris Bristow]

I have been looking at the Groden copy and it is clearer for viewing the lapel. In frame 222 the lapel looks like it has already flipped over most of the way, but in 223 it is back to normal. Then in 224 it is flipped again. Is it possible that the lapel is flipping due to Connally's wrist or hat rubbing against the lapel?
In frame 222 we see his right sleeve cuff coming up into view. Then in 223 the arm drops back down below the door and the lapel returns to normal for one frame. (The glint of sunlight off his right shirt cuff is barley visible just above the door near the bottom of the lapel.)
His wrist is higher in 222 with lapel partially flipped.
his wrist drops in 223 and the lapel is not flipped.
In 224 and the lapel is flipped again. The right cuff is identifiable in frames 229/230, if you flip back and forth you see the cuff move down with his hat.)

In frame 238 thru 239 it looks like his other lapel has flipped over. This happens as he drags his right arm and hat back to the right which may be catching the left lapel and flipping it over. Or maybe his left arm is dragging across his lapel as he tries to turn to the right. The left arm naturally drags across the chest if you try and twist your torso to the right in a seated position.
    In 238 and 239 the left lapel looks like it is flipped. Regardless of whether it is flipped or it is an anomaly due to lighting or something. how do we know the right lapel flip in 224 is due to a bullet if we see the same phenomena in frame 238 and 239?

[Dan O'meara]

It is a matter of looking at all the evidence. Logic is based on premises.  Premises have to be based on ALL the evidence. Not just one piece of evidence and someone's interpretation of it that does not fit the rest of the evidence. That is all I am saying.  Your premises do not fit the evidence.
The arm most certainly is moving. From z222 to z223 it drops to the right and then moves continuously across his body.  From z222 to z223, the amount of jacket covering the shirt decreases, from z223 to z224 it increases.   At z222 we see the hand, at z223 it disappears below the top of the door, in z224 we still don't see it, in z225 we see the hand again and in z226 we can see the hat (blurry but confirmed as the hat in z230):


If a bullet made the jacket move from z223 to z224, how do you explain the change from z222 to z223?


It appears that the jacket lapel is covering more of his shirt in z222 than in z223 and this appears to occur at the same time as his right hand drops from view.  So if the jacket can move from covering the shirt to exposing the shirt in one frame due to the movement of the hand, logic would tell you that that it could do the reverse in one frame due to the movement of the hand.

The usual unbelievable nonsense.
You are saying the movement of JBC's jacket in z224 is caused by JBC's arm moving across the front of his body.
I point out that his arm isn't moving across the front of him at this moment.
You disagree and, as usual, completely contradict yourself to try and win a point:

" At z222 we see the hand, at z223 it disappears below the top of the door, in z224 we still don't see it,"

So, as you correctly point out, JBC's hand disappears below the top of the door from z222 to z223. This happens in 55 milliseconds (half the blink of an eye), and is the moment JBC's wrist is hit by the bullet.
You then go on to state that his hand is still below the top of the door in z224, the same frame as the so-called 'lapel flip'.
In on breath you say the 'lapel flip' is caused by his arm is moving across his front at this point then in the next you state his hand is still below the top of the door at this point!!

You will literally say anything to keep your debunked theory alive in your mind.

The 'lapel flip' cannot be caused by his hand moving across his front as his hand is still below the top of the door at this point.
So what causes it if not the fragments of bone and tissue debris blowing out of the exit wound in his chest?

[Chris Bristow]

Funny thing, I did not see your post before posting the same basic argument.

[Andrew Mason]

The usual unbelievable nonsense.
You are saying the movement of JBC's jacket in z224 is caused by JBC's arm moving across the front of his body.
I point out that his arm isn't moving across the front of him at this moment.
You disagree and, as usual, completely contradict yourself to try and win a point:

" At z222 we see the hand, at z223 it disappears below the top of the door, in z224 we still don't see it,"

So, as you correctly point out, JBC's hand disappears below the top of the door from z222 to z223. This happens in 55 milliseconds (half the blink of an eye), and is the moment JBC's wrist is hit by the bullet.
You then go on to state that his hand is still below the top of the door in z224, the same frame as the so-called 'lapel flip'.
In on breath you say the 'lapel flip' is caused by his arm is moving across his front at this point then in the next you state his hand is still below the top of the door at this point!!

It is not difficult.  The arm moves down from z222 to z223.  From z223 to z225 it moves across his body.  We can't see it in z224 but we can infer that it must be moving across his front because we can see this movement in the succeeding frames.  All I am saying is that the movement of the jacket is perfectly consistent with the arm moving across his front before z224. It is not difficult. 

You have to admit that an arm movement can cause the jacket to move. We can see that from z222 to z223.  But you maintain that the movement of the arm from z224 to z231 did not begin before z224.  How do you know that? The jacket moves back to a similar position that it had in z222.

You will literally say anything to keep your debunked theory alive in your mind.

Well, I could make the same comment about your approach, perhaps - saying anything to keep the z224 bullet theory alive.  But I won't. 

The 'lapel flip' cannot be caused by his hand moving across his front as his hand is still below the top of the door at this point.

His hand can't be moving just because we can't see it?  And you think I am being unreasonable?

So what causes it if not the fragments of bone and tissue debris blowing out of the exit wound in his chest?

The fragments of bone and tissue blowing out of the exit wound?  What evidence is there of that?  I am not aware of any bone fragments from the rib going anywhere except into the lower lobe of the right lung. 

Your theory also does not explain the other hole above the sleeve - the one above the cuff. A single missile cannot make two entrance holes in clothing several inches apart.  The other wound in the wrist was on the palm side, 2 cm from the crease of the wrist.  Unless the french cuff was riding up over his hand (which I think would not have been possible), the object that made the palm side opening in the skin was not the same one that made the hole in the shirt sleeve above the cuff.

[Andrew Mason]

I have been looking at the Groden copy and it is clearer for viewing the lapel. In frame 222 the lapel looks like it has already flipped over most of the way, but in 223 it is back to normal. Then in 224 it is flipped again. Is it possible that the lapel is flipping due to Connally's wrist or hat rubbing against the lapel?
In frame 222 we see his right sleeve cuff coming up into view. Then in 223 the arm drops back down below the door and the lapel returns to normal for one frame. (The glint of sunlight off his right shirt cuff is barley visible just above the door near the bottom of the lapel.)
His wrist is higher in 222 with lapel partially flipped.
his wrist drops in 223 and the lapel is not flipped.
His wrist rises back up in 224 and the lapel is flipped again. The right cuff is identifiable in frames 229/230, if you flip back and forth you see the cuff move down with his hat.)

In frame 238 thru 239 it looks like his other lapel has flipped over. This happens as he drags his right arm and hat back to the right which may be catching the left lapel and flipping it over. Or maybe his left arm is dragging across his lapel as he tries to turn to the right. The left arm naturally drags across the chest if you try and twist your torso to the right in a seated position.
    In 238 and 239 the left lapel looks like it is flipped. Regardless of whether it is flipped or it is an anomaly due to lighting or something. how do we know the right lapel flip in 224 is due to a bullet if we see the same phenomena in frame 238 and 239?

Exactly my point.