The lapel flip -- what did i miss?

[Dan O'meara]

I have been looking at the Groden copy and it is clearer for viewing the lapel. In frame 222 the lapel looks like it has already flipped over most of the way, but in 223 it is back to normal. Then in 224 it is flipped again. Is it possible that the lapel is flipping due to Connally's wrist or hat rubbing against the lapel?
In frame 222 we see his right sleeve cuff coming up into view. Then in 223 the arm drops back down below the door and the lapel returns to normal for one frame. (The glint of sunlight off his right shirt cuff is barley visible just above the door near the bottom of the lapel.)
His wrist is higher in 222 with lapel partially flipped.
his wrist drops in 223 and the lapel is not flipped.
His wrist rises back up in 224 and the lapel is flipped again. The right cuff is identifiable in frames 229/230, if you flip back and forth you see the cuff move down with his hat.)

In frame 238 thru 239 it looks like his other lapel has flipped over. This happens as he drags his right arm and hat back to the right which may be catching the left lapel and flipping it over. Or maybe his left arm is dragging across his lapel as he tries to turn to the right. The left arm naturally drags across the chest if you try and twist your torso to the right in a seated position.
    In 238 and 239 the left lapel looks like it is flipped. Regardless of whether it is flipped or it is an anomaly due to lighting or something. how do we know the right lapel flip in 224 is due to a bullet if we see the same phenomena in frame 238 and 239?

"His wrist rises back up in 224 and the lapel is flipped again"

Below is a close up of z224. I'm not sure I can see where JBC's wrist is rising back up. Can you point it out?

[Chris Bristow]

Sorry my mistake. Meant to say the lapel flipped again.

[John Mytton]

JohnM

[Dan O'meara]

JohnM

There is no point saying this to those who have already made their mind up over this issue... but for those who haven't...
Look at the above Z-Film clip, in the very first frame notice how composed JBC looks, then look at how both men are suddenly flailing around.
Ask yourself this - does it look as though both men been shot through at the same time or not?

LATER EDIT:

On the issue of JBC's arm movement causing the so-called 'lapel flip'.
It is clear from the clip above that his arm does not come up again until after the 'lapel flip', negating any notion that this arm movement is the cause of the 'lapel flip' (the 'lapel flip' is actually the whole right side of JBC's jacket being blown out as a result of the shot passing through him. It is this blowing out of the right hand side of the jacket that causes the lapel flip)

[Andrew Mason]

There is no point saying this to those who have already made their mind up over this issue... but for those who haven't...
Look at the above Z-Film clip, in the very first frame notice how composed JBC looks, then look at how both men are suddenly flailing around.
Ask yourself this - does it look as though both men been shot through at the same time or not?

I can see that JFK is reacting to being shot through the neck.  I can see that JBC is also reacting.  But I can't tell for sure that JBC has been shot.  The reason I can't tell is:

1.  the evidence says that this was the first shot
2.  JBC said he was not hit in the back on the first shot.
3.  Nellie said JBC was not hit in the back on the first shot but JFK was.
4.  JBC said he reacted immediately to the first shot by doing exactly what we see him doing after z223: turning around to try to look at JFK.  Nowhere else do we see any attempt whatsoever to look at JFK, let alone when he is showing concern over hearing a rifle shot.
5.  JBC said he was hit in the back on the second shot.
6.  The evidence is overwhelming that the second shot was followed in close succession by the third shot that struck JFK in the head.  Greer, Altgens, Gayle Newman, Powers, Hickey all corroborate this.  So the second shot striking JBC in the back occurred after the midpoint between the first and third, which is some time after z256.

Now you say I am stuck on a "theory" because I am unable to see reason?  That's the reason.  I am just following the evidence. Your "you see he is hit in the back at z224" is not reason. It is a complete and abject failure to follow the evidence.

LATER EDIT:

On the issue of JBC's arm movement causing the so-called 'lapel flip'.
It is clear from the clip above that his arm does not come up again until after the 'lapel flip', negating any notion that this arm movement is the cause of the 'lapel flip' (the 'lapel flip' is actually the whole right side of JBC's jacket being blown out as a result of the shot passing through him. It is this blowing out of the right hand side of the jacket that causes the lapel flip)

Saying something is clear does not make it so. It is anything but clear that JBC's arm is not moving.  It doesn't have to be visible to Zapruder!!  What kind of an analysis is that based on?  I could just as easily say the forearm/wrist is not aligned with the exit wound from the chest because we can't see it. 

The forearm/hand/wrist moved down from z222 to z223 and the jacket moved (the jacket may simply have opened if he took his arm off of it, so we cannot tell that the jacket moved because it was dragged by the arm).  From z223 to z224 the jacket moved back similar to a position it was in in z222. From z224 we can see the forearm was moving.  What we can't see is whether the forearm was moving before z224.

Now you agree that the forearm was moving from z222 to z223 and from z224 to z231, but you can tell it was stopped from z223 to z224?  How on earth can you determine that from the zfilm when you cannot see the forearm at all between z223 and z224?  And you are supposedly the "reasonable" one and I am not!!

[Dan O'meara]

I can see that JFK is reacting to being shot through the neck.  I can see that JBC is also reacting.  But I can't tell for sure that JBC has been shot.  The reason I can't tell is:

1.  the evidence says that this was the first shot
2.  JBC said he was not hit in the back on the first shot.
3.  Nellie said JBC was not hit in the back on the first shot but JFK was.
4.  JBC said he reacted immediately to the first shot by doing exactly what we see him doing after z223: turning around to try to look at JFK.  Nowhere else do we see any attempt whatsoever to look at JFK, let alone when he is showing concern over hearing a rifle shot.
5.  JBC said he was hit in the back on the second shot.
6.  The evidence is overwhelming that the second shot was followed in close succession by the third shot that struck JFK in the head.  Greer, Altgens, Gayle Newman, Powers, Hickey all corroborate this.  So the second shot striking JBC in the back occurred after the midpoint between the first and third, which is some time after z256.

Now you say I am stuck on a "theory" because I am unable to see reason?  That's the reason.  I am just following the evidence. Your "you see he is hit in the back at z224" is not reason. It is a complete and abject failure to follow the evidence.

The Zapruder footage is, by far, the best, strongest evidence we have of what happened at this moment. I put the Z-Film before witness statements. You do not. As you have so amply demonstrated time after time, if witness statements are contradicted by what we see in the Z-Film you go with the witness statements. I do not.

Saying something is clear does not make it so.

I agree. But if something is clear then it's clear.

It is anything but clear that JBC's arm is not moving.

And here we have the craziness.
Who said JBC's arm isn't moving? Are you implying I've said that?
Provide the quote please.
JBC's arm is in constant motion during the clip.

It doesn't have to be visible to Zapruder!!  What kind of an analysis is that based on?  I could just as easily say the forearm/wrist is not aligned with the exit wound from the chest because we can't see it. 

The forearm/hand/wrist moved down from z222 to z223 and the jacket moved (the jacket may simply have opened if he took his arm off of it, so we cannot tell that the jacket moved because it was dragged by the arm).  From z223 to z224 the jacket moved back similar to a position it was in in z222. From z224 we can see the forearm was moving.  What we can't see is whether the forearm was moving before z224.

Now you agree that the forearm was moving from z222 to z223 and from z224 to z231, but you can tell it was stopped from z223 to z224?  How on earth can you determine that from the zfilm when you cannot see the forearm at all between z223 and z224?  And you are supposedly the "reasonable" one and I am not!!

Wow!
For anyone interested there is a detailed analysis of these frames in "The First Shot" thread.
As far as Andrew's rant is concerned -
In z222 (not shown in the clip below) the white cuff of JBC's sleeve can be seen just above the top of the door.
In z223 (the first frame of the clip below) the cuff has disappeared below the top of the door frame - this is the bullet strike.
In z224, JBC's forearm is still below the top of the door.
And this is the problem Andrew is struggling with because it is in this same frame that the 'lapel flip' occurs, while JBC's forearm is still below the top of the door.
As the clip rolls on we see JBC's hand and forearm emerge from beneath the top of the door.
The problem for Andrew's latest doomed theory is that he imagines the 'lapel flip' is caused by JBC's arm moving across the front of his jacket. As can be seen in the clip below, the 'lapel flip' occurs before JBC's hand emerges from beneath the top of the door frame.
That is to say, it occurs before JBC's hand has moved across his jacket.
This means JBC's hand movements could not have caused the 'lapel flip'.
Andrew's argument that - just because we can't see JBC's hand, therefore we don't know what it's doing, therefore it could be doing anything - is really as sh*t as it sounds.

[Andrew Mason]

The Zapruder footage is, by far, the best, strongest evidence we have of what happened at this moment. I put the Z-Film before witness statements. You do not. As you have so amply demonstrated time after time, if witness statements are contradicted by what we see in the Z-Film you go with the witness statements. I do not.

They are not contradicted by the zfilm. They are contradicted by what you think is happening in the zfilm.  There is a big difference. 

I agree. But if something is clear then it's clear.

It is far from clear.  We cannot see any definitive, unequivocal evidence that JBC is hit in the torso there.  It is just not there.  And the evidence says it is not there.

And here we have the craziness.
Who said JBC's arm isn't moving? Are you implying I've said that?
Provide the quote please.
JBC's arm is in constant motion during the clip.

I have obviously misunderstood your position. So if the arm is in constant motion from z222, why can the arm not be moving across his front prior to z224?  Just because YOU cannot see that it is moving across his front?  All we can tell is that the wrist dropped below the car door from Zapruder's point of view from z222 to z223 and that it was moving across his body from right to left from z224 to z231.  You conclude from that that the arm was not moving across his body from right to left before z224!!  You can see that?

Wow!
For anyone interested there is a detailed analysis of these frames in "The First Shot" thread.
As far as Andrew's rant is concerned -
In z222 (not shown in the clip below) the white cuff of JBC's sleeve can be seen just above the top of the door.
In z223 (the first frame of the clip below) the cuff has disappeared below the top of the door frame - this is the bullet strike.
In z224, JBC's forearm is still below the top of the door.
And this is the problem Andrew is struggling with because it is in this same frame that the 'lapel flip' occurs, while JBC's forearm is still below the top of the door..
As the clip rolls on we see JBC's hand and forearm emerge from beneath the top of the door.
The problem for Andrew's latest doomed theory is that he imagines the 'lapel flip' is caused by JBC's arm moving across the front of his jacket. As can be seen in the clip below, the 'lapel flip' occurs before JBC's hand emerges from beneath the top of the door frame.
That is to say, it occurs before JBC's hand has moved across his jacket.

Your "logic" escapes me.  You are saying that his hand must emerge from beneath the top of the door before it can be moving from right to left!  Yet we see it moving from right to left in z224-231.  Why does the motion have to be seen by Zapruder in order for it to occur?  Why can it not be moving when we cannot see it? Simple question....