Oswald: No power lunch

[Marjan Rynkiewicz]

Nice story. Too bad there is not a shred of evidence for it.

Uh Oh -- He hears Adams & Styles klomping down the stairs above him in a real hurry on a mission.

Pure speculation and also wrong. If Oswald came down the stairs it would have been directly after Adams and Styles and not before them. Study the timeline and you'll find it impossible for him to have been in front of them.

The 6th floor museum has footage of their tests showing that it would take 48 sec for Oswald to walk down to the 2nd floor.
He was ahead of Adams & Styles.

I just then found a test that did it in 46 seconds.
https://i1.wp.com/www.prayer-man.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/12/IMG_4613-scaled.jpg
https://i2.wp.com/www.prayer-man.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/12/IMG_4614-scaled.jpg
https://reopenkennedycase.forumotion.net/t1559p50-update-to-anatomy-of-the-second-floor-lunch-room-encounter

[Marjan Rynkiewicz]

Correct

Seeing as you were there that day and they weren't, I'm sure you're right. The coincidence between their recollections and a claim of Mr Oswald that did not reach the public domain until decades later is obviously just that--------a coincidence 

Dougherty's claims are all over the place. Dougherty had no reason to be on the 2nd floor in  that period -- he used the lifts to get up n down from the 5th & 6th floors. Oswald never had lunch on the 2nd floor, it was for staff.
Arnold's claims are all over the place too. She never saw Oswald eating lunch on the 2nd floor. She exited the TSBD with a bunch of ladies at 12:15.

[Alan Ford]

I thought Oswald went to lunch at noon.



You just said it: "Around noon Mr Oswald breaks for lunch". But it should read "Around At noon Mr Oswald breaks went for lunch". Maybe he got a Coke on the way down, but he ought to arrive no later that 12:03-ish

Silly! Agent Hosty's paragraph distinguishes between going for lunch and eating lunch. The former therefore refers to breaking for lunch, i.e. suspending work activities. Mr Oswald will buy a coke as an accompaniment to his lunch, which he will then proceed to start eating. Get it now?

But those in the Domino Room don't remember Oswald being there.

Where does Mr Oswald say he sat in the domino room as soon as he broke for lunch? Don't you know what the first thing was that manual workers in the Depository usually did after breaking for lunch? Do you really need it spelled out for you?

And if Oswald brought a lunch, why did he lie about placing the bag it was in on the back seat of Frazier's car?

The lunch was presumably in the paper bag that also contained the curtain rods (cf the Crime Scene Search Section form you can't explain!). Later, in custody, Mr Oswald allegedly denied having brought any large-ish package to work. If he did indeed deny this, and your heroes aren't lying about this, then that has a simple explanation: he knew how it would be used unfairly against him. He wasn't (unlike his latter-day accusers) a fool.

BTW, you know the "went to 2nd floor to get Coco Cola to eat with lunch" was to justify his presence in the Second Floor Lunchroom just after the assassination (Oswald was in flight and he ducked in there when he heard Truly and Baker coming up the stairs). And no one expects Oswald to be telling the officials what he really was doing during the assassination.

We expect the officials not to lie about what he actually said in custody---------which is what they did here, as proved by the Hosty draft report with its clear account of PRE-motorcade visit to second-floor lunchroom & going outside to watch the P. Parade. Utterly at odds with the official reports. If these were determined to be lies told by Mr Oswald, why did your 'investigating' heroes feel the need to keep them from the public record? Another way of asking this question is: How would you read the explosive contents of the Hosty draft report if you weren't completely blinded by your Warren Gullibility?

 

[Marjan Rynkiewicz]

There has been mention of Brennan here. Any mention of Brennan should be consistent with the following.........

I propose the following sequence of actions by Oswald & Brennan, based on Brennan's words.
LHO's are Oswald's actions. [Brennan's actions are in brackets].
The Z numbers are the frame numbers of the Zapruder footage which actually starts at Z133 in the final sequence, running at 18.3 fps.
Z numbers before Z133 are pseudo numbers based on estimates of timings.

Z000 minus a few minutes. [Brennan sees Oswald in the window some minutes before JFK arrives]
Z000 minus a few minutes. [Brennan climbs up & sits on the curved brick wall on the south-west corner of Elm & Houston]
Z002. LHO sees JFK approaching along Houston St.   Click…Click (ejects empty casing)(loads bullet).
Z002. [Brennan watches JFK along Houston St & turning onto Elm St]
Z080. LHO aims rifle at JFK as limo turns onto Elm St.
Z112. LHO fires Shot-1 as the limo straightens.
Z113. The slug ricochets off the overhead signal arm & makes a hole in the floor of the limo (hole found Dec 1963).
Z112. [Brennan hears Shot-1 & thinks it is a backfire or a firecracker][he continues to watch JFK along Elm St]   
Z122. LHO  Click…Click.
Z133.................................... The Zapruder footage 2nd sequence starts at Z133.
Z133. [In the footage we see Brennan sitting on the wall]
Z152. LHO aims. A tree blocks a clean shot.
Z207. [Our last view in the footage of Brennan sitting on the wall][After Z207 Brennan is out of frame]
Z207. [The footage shows that at no time during Z133 to Z207 has Brennan looked up towards Oswald]
Z217. [Brennan's last view of JFK -- koz a shrub now blocks Brennan's view down Elm St]
Z217. LHO fires Shot-2. The slug hits JFK & Connally (the magic bullet).
Z218. [Brennan hears Shot-2 & realizes that it was a rifle]
Z225. [Brennan looks up & sees Oswald aiming a rifle at JFK]
Z227. LHO  Click…Click.
Z255. LHO aims. Sees that JFK has been hit.  Decides not to shoot his last bullet (why?).
Z268. LHO stands up & backs away from window, looking at JFK.
Z268. [Brennan sees Oswald stand up & back away & look]
Z280. [Brennan jumps off the wall, & ducks behind a solid section of wall 12 ft away & lays on the grass]
Z313. LHO steps further back from window, still looking, sees agent Hickey shoot JFK in the head.
Z313. [Brennan is laying on grass behind the wall & doesn't hear Hickey's shot(s)]
Z322. LHO walks to the stairs, wiping the rifle, & hides it. There is a 3rd bullet in the rifle. LHO does not pick up his rifle-bag nor the 3 empty casings near the window.
Z400. [Brennan leaves the wall & talks to a cop]
......................................[Brennan heard 2 shots & saw none]

[Martin Weidmann]

The 6th floor museum has footage of their tests showing that it would take 48 sec for Oswald to walk down to the 2nd floor.
He was ahead of Adams & Styles.

If you want to be gullible...  go ahead. Ignorance is bliss, but you're wrong nevertheless.

Here's a hint; in the tv footage (I think) you refer to, he reaches the 4th floor at 35 seconds after the shots. Adams and Styles needed less than 20 seconds to get to the stairs (on the 4th floor) after the last shot. Do the math.

Btw, Dorothy Garner said that she saw Officer Baker and Mr. Truly come up after the girls went down. If Oswald (or whoever it was) had come down before the women, Baker and Truly would have had to meet the women on the stairs after their lunchroom encounter. Guess what.... they didn't!

[John Mytton]

Jack Dougherty said that he ate lunch in the Domino Room from 12:00 until 12:30 (or shortly before 12:30).
Jack then took a lift to the 6th floor or 5th floor to get stock.
Jack said that he saw LHO twice that day -- (1) entering the building at 8:00 am, & (2) on the 6th floor at about 11:00 am.
Jack did not mention whether Jarman or Norman entered the Domino Room at about 12:10.
Jack did not mention whether Jarman or Norman walked past the Domino Room at about 12:26.

Even though Jack seems to have problems with the chronology of events, which may have just been due to being nervous? and like Oswald, Jack had no alibi which only would have mounted extra pressure.
But Dougherty did get to work an hour early and had extra important responsibilities which means he was trusted as an employee and only adds to his credibility.
Jack does make an interesting revelation during his testimony, he says that some of his fellow employees like Shelley saw Oswald carry a good-sized package which I believe is most certainly true and personally I can't blame any of them for not disclosing that they saw Oswald carry the bag that contained the Presidential murder weapon, because that opens a whole new can of worms like, why they didn't ask Oswald about the unusually long bag and especially on that day.

Mr. BALL - Did you ever see Lee Oswald carry any sort of large package?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Well, I didn't, but some of the fellows said they did.
Mr. BALL - Who said that?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Well, Bill Shelley, he told me that he thought he saw him carrying a fairly good-sized package.
Mr. BALL - When did Shelley tell you that?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Well, it was--the day after it happened.

JohnM

[Mitch Todd]

Estimates are estimates, but you'd at least expect Arnold to be consistent.  I brought it up because you selectively chose to use 12:25 from one version and not 12:15 from another.

No. I never used either estimate. I merely pointed out that Carolyn Arnold was consistent is saying that she had seen Oswald, whether it was at 12:15 or 12:25 or somewhere inbetween.

Well, no. You cherry picked her 12:25 statements and mysteriously forgot to mention the 12:15 ones. In this case, the 10 minute difference is liable to be significant. 

Off the top of my head, only Arnold Rowland is the only person who claimed to see "movement" in any 6th floor window at 12:15. Please see the tête-à-tête [Bill, take note]  I had with Dan O'Meara regarding Rowland.

Brennan also claimed to have seen somebody in the window well before the arrival of the motorcade.

Brennan said that he left his workplace for the Dealey Plaza at 12:18, and arrived at his perch between 12:22 and 12:24. He sighted the man on the 6th floor sometime after that. That put's Brennan's sighting of his rifleman only a few minutes before the appearance of the motorcade. Maybe only a couple of minutes. Maybe even less. But not "well before the arrival of the motorcade", especially in the sense that you'd like to imply. And after 12:15.

And, why do  I have this feeling that you really have no idea what a "normal murder investigation" would entail?

That's an easy question to answer. You are a LN. That's why you have that "feeling"! It has to do with pure bias and nothing to do with reality.

The LNs in this thread really must not like the obvious facts being presented since all of them are now attacking the messenger. Says it all, really!

Sometimes, it's what you don't say that's most important. For instance, look at all the Sturm und Drang you just unloaded from Wonderland's left field. For all that typing, you made no effort whatsoever to rebut my point...which is a good sign that you can't. Your notions as to what constitutes a "normal murder investigation" is no better than the untutored reveries of any other sad sap out there.  The funny part is that you ended it proclaiming your "obvious facts" immediately after parroting a half truth (in Carolyn Arnold's case) and a high-arching incorrectitude (in claiming that  Howard Brennan said he saw someone on the 6th floor "well before" the motorcade showed up.) 

[Alan Ford]

If Oswald at that time was eating his lunch n the second floor then he would have been spotted by many office workers.

Name them!

Yet no one did.

~Grin~ And anyone who says they did you dismiss in kneejerk fashion as not credible---------all because you have your heart set on putting Mr Oswald on six for the shooting.

You still haven't addressed the key point, Mr Rynkiewicz: the fact that Mr Dougherty and Ms Arnold and Ms Stanton all offer support for something (a PRE-motorcade visit to the second-floor lunchroom by Mr Oswald) that no one at that time even knew Mr Oswald had claimed. They didn't say 'I saw him sitting on the front stairs' or '...standing out on the rear loading dock' or '...looking at stuff in the storage room on 1'. No: second-floor lunchroom.

Imagine Mr Oswald had claimed he'd been down in the basement eating lunch alone. And imagine this claim was completely unknown to anyone outside the inner circle of investigators, only seeing the light of day in 2019. And imagine three Depository employees had long before that, and independently of one another, spoken of having seen Mr Oswald in the basement in the timeframe in question.

Wouldn't it be just astounding that a guilty Mr Oswald had managed to predict what three people would later corroborate?

Well, that's where we are with his claim to have visited the second-floor lunchroom before the assassination.