Oswald's 52 seconds near the coke machine.

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Online Marjan Rynkiewicz

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Re: Oswald's 52 seconds near the coke machine.
« Reply #16 on: December 06, 2023, 12:55:48 AM »
Ok, Geneva Hine might be a problem for our timeline, lemmeseenow.
The phone lights die out.  [The time is now say -1:00]
She walks to an eastern window.  [-0:50]
She sees the lead car coming along Houston St.  [-0:30]
She sees the JFK limo turn into Elm St. [-0:05]
She hears a shot. [0:01]
She hears 2 more shots.  [0:11].
She sees gawkers running & hitting the deck in Elm St (east end)(east end of east end). [0:20]
She walks south into the front Foyer to a locked office door & knocks, & yells, but no-one answers.  [0:25]
She walks north up the corridor & then west along the corridor to another locked office door, & shakes the door & yells & yells, but is ignored. [0:40]
She walks west along the corridor & then north along the corridor, & opens a door to the lunchroom entrance hall, & enters the hall. [0:45]
She turns & opens a door into the north west corner of her office, & enters the office.  [0:48]
Oswald exits the stairs & sees the door to the office closing behind Hine.  [0:48]
Phew.  That was a close shave. But the timeline works ok. Just.

Hmmmmm. Later, at 1:55, ie at 115 sec, Oswald enters that there same door, into that there office, instead of using the corridor.
We know that he enters at 115 sec koz he meets Jeraldean Reid at 118 sec, just before she gets to her desk at 120 sec.
Reid did 3 re-enactments of her traject from Elm St after the shots, & they all came to 120 sec.
Anyhow, i dont think that Oswald would have entered that there office if he knew for sure that someone was in there.
In which case Hine entered her office at 0:47, & Oswald didn't see her enter.
Re Hine versus Oswald, if u prefer, Hine entered her office at 0:48, & Oswald entered the 2nd floor at 0:49.
Yep, anyhow, one way or the other, Oswald was 1 sec later than Hine.
Hine walks to the phone desk. The 3 phone lines are going bezerk. [0:55]
Oswald enters Hine's office [1:55] & passes Jackalean Reid. [1:58]
Oswald walks past Hine & out of her office into the 2nd floor Lobby. [2:05]
Hine duznt notice Oswald, she is juggling the phones.

Now, if Oswald got to the 2nd floor at 48 sec, & if Baker & Truly got to the 2nd floor at 100 sec, then that means that Oswald dillyd for 52 sec.
And if he entered the office at 155 sec, then that means that he dallyd for another 55 sec, which adds to 107 sec of dillydally near the coke machine.
Anyhow it all turned out ok. 
Except that he lost his jacket.
And a Carcano.
And one bullet.
And a brown paper bag.
And some curtain rods.

Which leaves us with one obvious question.
Where is Waxahachie?
Waxahachie might make a good Sister City for Wagga Wagga.

The door to Hines' office is next to the lunch room door.
Oswald entered that office door less than a minute after Hines.

« Last Edit: December 06, 2023, 12:58:04 AM by Marjan Rynkiewicz »

Online Marjan Rynkiewicz

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Re: Oswald's 52 seconds near the coke machine.
« Reply #17 on: June 20, 2025, 08:00:11 AM »
Oswald gets to the 2nd floor after 48 sec.  He stops.  What to do next? 
Should he continue down to the first floor? 
Should he go to the first floor via the front stairs? 
Should he lay low in the lunch room? 
His jacket is in the Domino Room.
Uh Oh -- He hears Adams & Styles klomping down the stairs in a real hurry on a mission.
Best to visit the coke machine & hope that whoever it is goes clean past.
They pass. He comes back out. What to do next?
He can't decide.  He will be less conspicuous if he takes the front stairs, but he would then have to walk back into & throo the storage area to get his jacket in the Domino Room.
He decides to continue down the back stairs.
He makes a start but then Truly hollers up the elevator shaft, so he goes back up.
Then he hears Baker & Truly galloping up the stairs, & he retreats to the coke machine a second time.
He walks slow & cool. 
He would have been better off diving into the lunchroom in a hurry, & laying low, he knows there is no-one in there, but he knows that if seen rushing (by Truly & Co) it will be a sure sign that he is guilty of something.
He nearly makes it, another couple of slow steps & he will be out of sight.
But damn, Baker spots a bit of him throo the glass of the door & says to come back.
Truly says that Oswald works here, & Baker & Truly gallop off.
They get to the 5th floor & take the east elevator to the 7th floor.
Oswald gets a coke to look less guilty & more cool if confronted again.  And assassinations go better with coke.
The back stairs are now dangerous.  He heads for the front stairs, either forgetting about his jacket or deciding that his jacket is a dead duck.
But just in case more dumb cops are entering along the corridor he goes via the office.
Damn, he meets Jeraldean Reid as she returns to her desk.  Mrs Hine is also in the office but she doesn't notice Oswald, or forgets.
Reid in 3 re-enactments took exactly 120 sec to get to her desk, which is about right (ie to meet Oswald).
She says something as they pass & he mumbles something back.  Its not a good look.  He has no business in the office, unless wanting change for the coke machine. Its not even a short cut to the stairs. Damn.  Anyhow no big deal.
He goes down the front stairs & mixes with the growing throng in the lobby near the front door without raising any suspicion.
Someone asks him about a phone.
Ok, things aint so bad, praps he can take a chance & get his jacket from the Domino Room anyhow.
Hmmm – he can get his jacket by going out the front door & down the steps & around & entering via the Houston dock (like he does each morning), & walking 16 paces to the jacket. 
Getting caught walking in shouldn’t result in getting bitten by a cop.
So, off he goes, but he gets a little ways up Houston & he sees Officer Barnett on sentry duty at the dock, & Barnett looks vicious.
So, a quick U-turn & back down Houston.  Buell Frazier sees him walking south along Houston.
No, the jacket is a dead duck.  He decides to get out of there asap, he crosses Houston & then crosses Elm.
Tippit is waiting.
Nice work.

Online Tom Graves

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Re: Oswald's 52 seconds near the coke machine.
« Reply #18 on: June 20, 2025, 12:34:33 PM »
Why do you believe it's implausible that Lee Harvey Oswald killed JFK?

Online Marjan Rynkiewicz

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Re: Oswald's 52 seconds near the coke machine.
« Reply #19 on: June 20, 2025, 01:56:24 PM »

It is impossible that Oswald fired the Z313 headshot.

Offline Frank Beard

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Re: Oswald's 52 seconds near the coke machine.
« Reply #20 on: June 20, 2025, 05:48:12 PM »
It is impossible that Oswald fired the Z313 headshot.

Why?

Online Marjan Rynkiewicz

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Re: Oswald's 52 seconds near the coke machine.
« Reply #21 on: Yesterday at 02:04:39 AM »
Frazier was at the corner of Houston and Elm when he saw Oswald. He never said he saw Oswald coming from the loading dock. That is your invention.

Try again.
Frazier saw Oswald coming from the loading dock, meaning walking south from the direction of the dock.
My timeline requires that Oswald had walked past Frazier at some time/point, then walked north along the TSBD (towards the dock, to get hiz jacket from the domino room) but then did a U-turn & walked back south along the TSBD, which iz where/when Fazier saw Oswald walking "from the dock".
So, Oswald must hav passed Frazier near the steps or near the corner of the TSBD less than 30 sec before Oswald passed Frazier near the corner for the last time.
We can be sure that Oswald had exited the TSBD via the main door/steps, koz, had he exited via the dock then he would hav got hiz jacket. But the jacket remained in the domino room for weeks.
Frazier had spent over 60 sec near the corner, so Oswald had passed within inches or feet of Frazier. So, how did Frazier not see Oswald the first time?
Anyhow, my perfect timeline requires that Oswald did not come from the dock, but had come from that direction, after doing a U-turn.
So, where did Oswald dump the empty coke bottle?
The vending machine would hav taken 5 cents or 10 cents.
And the bottle refund/deposit would hav been 2 cents to 5 cents.
Probly not enuff to explain why Oswald might hav shot Tippit. 

Online Marjan Rynkiewicz

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Re: Oswald's 52 seconds near the coke machine.
« Reply #22 on: Yesterday at 02:18:52 AM »
33:50.
Stephen Fagin….. In the chaos that followed the shooting did u see Oswald at all?
I did.  This was a long i don’t know exactly how many minutes later but the lady i was standing next to…. Some of the people Bill Shelly and Billy Lovelady they went down toward the triple underpass because before they went down there a lady come by a woman came by and she was crying she said somebody has shot the president. And so we looked bewildered.  And i turned to Sarah and she said, “Somebody shot the president”.  I said, “I thought that’s what she said”.  She said, “She did say that”.  So we stood there for a few minutes and and i walked down to the first step where Billy was standing down there at the bottom of the steps.  So i looked around and it was just total chaos there.  And then from there i started to go down to see if i could find Bill Shelly and Billy Lovelady.  And it was so much chaos down there. I said, “Well, i better go back to where? Go back to the steps”.  And i did. I walked back to to the bottom of the steps. And then i walked out to the corner of the building right there where Houston comes up beside the building and i was talking to someone. 
It was a lady and i looked to my left and come walking along the side of Texas schoolwork building was Lee Oswald.
Stephen Fagin….. Walking along this side of the building? (pointing).
Yes. Houston St. Yes. Houston Street. So he he’d come around from off the dock there. And so he walks up and i’m talking to this lady.  He didn’t say anything.  And he crosses Houston.  I watch him cross Houston as i was talking to the lady.  He gets over to the other side of Houston and  then he crosses Elm…. and somebody said something to me and i turned and he was about halfway across the street and when i turned back he was gone in the crowd.  I don’t know what happened to him but i didn’t worry too much about that because there was several places around there that you could go and eat a sandwich.  And i remember asking him that morning when he was riding in with me. I says, “Where’s your lunch?”.  He said, “Oh, i’m going to buy it off the truck today”.  I said, “Okay”.  Well, i didn’t think about what he talking about buying off the truck.  He said, “Uh, buy his lunch”.  He said, “I’ll just buy my lunch today”.  And i don’t like to use the word assume, but i thought he was talking about the catering truck.  But…..
Stephen Fagin….. There’s no doubt in your mind that this was Lee Harvey Oswald?”. 
It was.
Stephen Fagin….. Could you see the expression on his face?  Is there anything you can tell us about the way he looked?
There was nothing different about Lee.  The expression on his face was…. he looked perfectly normal.  And that’s the last time that i remember seeing him.
Stephen Fagin….. You then went down to the basement and had your own lunch that day……………


Offline Zeon Mason

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Re: Oswald's 52 seconds near the coke machine.
« Reply #23 on: Today at 03:30:30 AM »
http://www.patspeer.com/chapter4b%3A%22theso-calledevidence%22

6. What did Dougherty hear if it wasn't a shot?
ANSWER: Well, one possibility is that he heard a sound related to Baker and Truly's running around on the roof, and subsequent descent using the east elevator.
Was it the slamming of the door to the roof?

The exact nature of this door remains a bit of a mystery. But it appears it was some sort of trap door or hatch.

Mr. BELIN - Officer Baker, I am going to hand you what the court reporter, what the Commission reporter, has marked as Exhibit 507 which purports to be a diagram of the seventh floor of the Texas School Book Depository Building and on that diagram you will see at the top the marks of two elevators and then, what looks to be the south, a stairway marked "Ladder to the roof."
Mr. BAKER - Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN - What is the fact as to whether or not this stairway marked "Ladder to the roof" is the stairway that you took to go to the roof?
Mr. BAKER - Yes, sir; it would be.
Mr. BELIN - All right.
Here is the top half of Exhibit 507.
 And here is a drawing prepared by Roy Rose in March 1964, that was the source for this exhibit. (Thanks to Gary Murr and Bart Kamp for bringing this to my attention.)
 
Note that the stairway to the roof was indeed blocked off, and that the only way up to the roof was a ladder with 21 risers. Such a ladder does not stop at a door, but at a hatch.
Something like this...
 
There is a photo of the roof on the Baylor University website, from its Jack White collection, that supports my "hatch" theory, moreover. (Mucho thanks to Robin Unger for bringing this to my attention.)
Here it is.
 
The County Records Building, sitting on the southeast corner of Houston and Elm, is in the background, on the right side of the photo.
The white building on the left side of the photo is a small building which in 1963 sat atop the elevator shaft. The small shack in front of it then would have to have covered the outlet to the roof from the "Ladder to Roof" on the seventh floor diagram.
There wasn't enough room to stand up in this shack. It appears from this, then, that the outlet onto the roof was in the form of a hatch...
that would have made a loud noise should it have been slammed shut.
It should be noted here, while we're at it, that at least one other Dealey Plaza witness heard a loud sound around the time Baker and Truly descended from the roof. This was J.C. Price, an employee of the General Services Administration. Price watched the motorcade from the roof of the U.S. Post Office Terminal Annex Building. This was on the south side of the Plaza, and Price's recollections reflect that he was viewing the motorcade from some distance. On the day of the shooting, he presented the Dallas County Sheriff's Department with a signed statement. He asserted: "I was on the roof of the Terminal Annex Bldg on the NE corner when the presidential motorcade came down Main to Houston, North on Houston and then West on Elm. The cars had proceeded west on Elm and was just a short distance from the Triple underpass, when I saw Gov. Connally slump over. I did not see the president as his car had gotten out of my view under the underpass.
There was a volley of shots, and then much later, maybe as much as five minutes later, another one."
Now ain't that something. The only witness who'd watched the motorcade from the roof of a building to make a statement was also the only witness to claim he'd heard a loud sound around the time Baker and Truly came down from the roof of the depository building. The Terminal Annex Building is directly across the Plaza from the school book depository. It's about the same height... It's near certain a loud sound on the roof of the depository would be heard across the way. And was...
In any event, it seems probable that the sound heard by Dougherty came from the roof of the building as Baker and Truly returned to the seventh floor to take the east elevator down.
The sound Dougherty heard, after all, came from above him, not from the southeast windows of the fifth floor, off to his side. These were open windows but a few feet below an open window through which a high-powered rifle had supposedly fired three shots. Should shots have been fired while he was on the fifth floor, he would have heard these shots from the sniper's nest through these windows. That only makes sense.
So, okay, there's another one. Why wasn't this point ever brought up by Ball? Or Belin? And why wasn't this tested?


The Police Officer on duty on the roof on a building on the other side of Houston St also reported hearing a lone shot about 4 minutes after the other shots.
It would have been the trapdoor/hatch (at the top of the ladder) slamming shut.
Or it might have been a door in that there triangular penthouse over the exit of the stairs. However i think there was no such door, it too was a hatch.
Truly said that Baker & Truly used the stairs.  Baker said they used the ladder. I think Truly meant the ladder.



There is a ramp at that there dock door. Shelly & Lovelady entered there.  They (one ovem) mentioned a ramp.





Thanks for posting that west side of TSBD. The roof top of the annex building is right under 2nd floor level windows so a shooter from 6th floor taking the west side freight elevator down to 2nd floor could have quickly gone out the west window by the rear staircase and across the roof and then lowered himself to the ground.

Now if you could  just find a photo of a car parked there at the 12:30 mark by that North west side of TSBD and then another photo at 12: 32 showing the car not there anymore, then there would be more motivation to explore an shooter escape by west elevator scenario.

Jack Dougherty is the biggest ? Because they never verified that Jack had spoken to Eddie Piper on the ground floor. Jack had no alibi for where he was at the time of the shooting.