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Author Topic: DPD Tapes and a 6 Minute Discrepancy  (Read 23753 times)

Offline Tom Scully

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Re: DPD Tapes and a 6 Minute Discrepancy
« Reply #48 on: May 24, 2021, 08:57:37 AM »
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I've been at this about a year now and one thing I have noticed is that there is hardly a single eye-witness testimony or piece of evidence that isn't contradicted and/or dubious in some way. It's a really striking aspect of this case.
The truth should be a fairly straight-forward matter in my opinion, even taking into account witness unreliability or the incompetence/corruption that features in the investigation.
But this is something else and is at the heart of why so many people can hold so many different views of what happened.
I find it difficult not to draw the conclusion that the Chaos you mention signifies a deliberate (and very successful) attempt to obscure the truth of what really happened.
I'm still in the process of trying to pick my own path through this labyrinth, all I can do is follow my own interpretation of things but that may end up having little to do with the actual truth of the matter.

I've "only" been actively seeking to make sense of this for thirteen years, so I have more in common with you than the five and six decade veterans. I was a middle school student in 1963 and the assassinations of MLK and RFK five years later influenced me to avert my gaze, Vietnam, Kent State, Watergate and a couple of years of an unelected POTUS who picked his own vice president made me cynical. I didn't view "JFK, the movie" until 2013.

Quote
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/retropolis/wp/2018/03/30/who-killed-martin-luther-king-jr-his-family-believes-james-earl-ray-was-framed/
March 30, 2018
...“It pains my heart,” said Bernice King, 55, the youngest of Martin Luther King’s four children and the executive director of the King Center in Atlanta, “that James Earl Ray had to spend his life in prison paying for things he didn’t do.”..


Coretta Scott King and her daughter, Bernice, then 5 years old, at the April 9, 1968, funeral of  Martin Luther King Jr. in Atlanta.

...Andrew Young, the former U.N. ambassador and Atlanta mayor who was at the Lorraine Motel with King when he was shot there, agrees. “I would not accept the fact that James Earl Ray pulled the trigger, and that’s all that matters,” said Young, who noted that King’s death came after the killings of John F. Kennedy and Malcolm X and just months before the slaying of Robert F. Kennedy.

Quote
"rope-a-dope" is used to describe strategies in which one contender draws non-injuring offensive punches to let the opponent tire themselves out.

https://www.nytimes.com/2007/01/02/washington/02cnd-ford-ghwb.html
Jan. 2, 2007
Following is the transcript of the eulogy for former President Gerald R. Ford delivered today by former President George H.W. Bush in Washington, as recorded by The New York Times.

 And the conspiracy theorists can say what they will, but the Warren Commission report will always have the final definitive say on this tragic matter. Why? Because Jerry Ford put his name on it and Jerry Ford’s word was always good.


It's been hard to argue with this.:
http://jfk.hood.edu/Collection/Weisberg%20Subject%20Index%20Files/G%20Disk/Garrison%20Jim/Garrison%20Jim%206-78ff/Item%2028.pdf


The WC Report and the news media and a number of book authors made Oswald out to be the lone assassin and DeMohrenschildt as his best friend in Dallas.


« Last Edit: May 24, 2021, 09:48:23 AM by Tom Scully »

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Re: DPD Tapes and a 6 Minute Discrepancy
« Reply #48 on: May 24, 2021, 08:57:37 AM »


Offline Colin Crow

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Re: DPD Tapes and a 6 Minute Discrepancy
« Reply #49 on: May 25, 2021, 03:36:24 AM »
Most will be aware of the controversial instruction of dispatcher Murray Jackson to Tippit and Nelson to move from their assigned patrol districts to Oak Cliff around 12.45. This instruction was absent from the original police transcripts prepared for the WC (Sawyer Exhibits A&B) that were supposed to contain all relevant communications relating to the assassination and Tippit. After some months the call appeared in subsequent transcripts. This call allayed concerns of the WC about why Tippit would be so far outside his assigned district when shot.  In order to get a clearer picture of whether Oak Cliff was indeed being drained of police presence following the call for all units to proceed down town I used the following documents. CE2645 -an FBI report dated June 1964 that outlined each patrol assignment for that day and what their response was. This report was prepared to determine if any patrol car could have been responsible for the sighting of a car at 1026 North Beckley around 1pm as claimed by Mrs Roberts. Interestingly the one officer excluded from this summary is Tippit!  Putnam Exhibit 1 is a map of the patrol districts.  The transcripts that appear at John McAdams site http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/dpdtapes/index.htm  From these I prepared the following map.



Those units who were reported to attend downtown in response to the call are indicated in red and are positioned in the district allocated prior to the shooting. Cars containing 2 officers are indicated by circles and those with one are squares. There were some cars instructed to stay in their district and some of them were instructed to set up road blocks. All roadblocks were to the North and north-east of the city. Officers instructed to stay in their areas are indicated in blue. There are some officers that further require attention. Parker, Nelson, Menzel and Tippit. 

Officer Parker (56).
Parker was assigned districts 56 and 58. After making a call at 12.28 Parker disappears for a period "anyone know where 56 is?" However the transcripts indicate he radioed in his position to dispatch around 12.44 that he would be "out for five" and was on East Jefferson. This is within the Oak Cliff district and it appears he had not responded to the downtown call. In CE2645 it is stated he remained in his allocated district. This is clearly wrong and Jackson knew he was in Oak Cliff. His position at this time is indicated on the map. Parker does not broadcast again until 2.13! CE2645 incorrectly claimed he remained in his district, about 10 miles, away the whole time. 

Officer Nelson (87)
Nelson was well north of his assigned district when he called his position to Jackson at 12.45. He was at RL Thornton and Marsalis, many miles North of district 87. He was much closer to Oak Cliff at this time than was Tippit. Apparently Nelson ignored the call from Jackson to move to Oak Cliff and continued to the TSBD. In CE2645 it simply states he proceeded downtown as instructed. No mention of the Jackson instruction to patrol Oak Cliff. 

Officer Walker   
He was instructed to remain in districts 85 and 86 south of Oak Cliff. 

Officer Menzel (91)
Menzel assigned district 91 and 92, reports clear at 12.28. It appears he heads for lunch at a diner at 430 West Jefferson. It would seem strange he heard nothing on the radio about the shooting on the radio 2 minutes later. He seems to be the only officer who took a lunch break at this time. He did not report back until after 1pm and in CE 2645 it states he repeatedly tried to call by phone but couldn't get through. Obviously no news of the shooting had reached him in nearly 40 minutes. Believable? No attempt by dispatch to contact him in this time to help patrol Oak Cliff. Strange, given Jackson's concern about draining the area of resources. 

Officer Tippit (78)
It might appear that he too was responding to the downtown call but certainly at a slower pace than Nelson. He reported he was at Keinst and Bonnie View at 12.45 and his position on the map reflects this. (However we know that there are 5 witnesses that put him at the Gloco station around this time). 

So does it appear that Jackson's justification for ordering Tippit and Neslon to Oak Cliff is logical from the evidence? It certainly appears to me  that there are large areas of Dallas devoid of police. In fact apart from those downtown at the TSBD, Oak Cliff is blessed with police.

Having trawled through the transcripts and listened to the calls some extra comments in chronological order.

1. There is a call of 78 (Tippit) at 12.29 one minute before the shots. it is not clear if this it Tippit or Dispatch.
 
2. At 12.30 91(Menzel) calls clear twice. The second time is just 5 seconds before sirens are clearly heard on the radio. Menzel does not get confirmation of clear from dispatch? Apparently he goes to lunch.

3.At 12.36 93 is called from dispatch and reports at 12.36 at Sylvan and Fort Worth? This appears to be way outside the assigned district. Assists an ambulance by blocking a road. 

4. Who is 97 that called in at 12.41? Reports in at Westmoreland and Fort Worth less about 5 minutes from 1026 North Beckley. Dispatch seems surprised 97 is in service.

5. The 12.41 call for squads in down town area to code 3 elm and Houston. Note the call is for local units only.

6. Unit 43 already there at the jail.  Unit 233 is already at Elm and Houston.  Unit 61 is close by.  Then 77 responds from the district west of Tippit. He does not get confirmed by dispatch for this.  Then Unit 63, I have no idea who that is but district 63 is close to the scene.  Then dispatch calls 76 in.  Then 97, again no idea who 97 is but district 97 is west of Oak Cliff, is called by dispatch.  Then 60, 80, and 100 are called by dispatch to attend (Sgts. Putnam, Davis and Jennings).  113 is enroute 113 is downtown close already. I could not find a listing for 113. Is it car 113 (Woods) in district 68 or Osburn as indicated on McAdams site. The position called, Gaston and Haskell is North of Fort worth? Strange. 66 calls enroute, again no idea who 66 is.

At 12.42 81 Calls he is at Corinth and 8th this is in northeastern oak cliff 56 reports East Jefferson again in Oak Cliff 12.45 suspect description is broadcast and 233 broadcasts the suspect is in the TSBD. 81 has moved north on industrial moving closer to the TSBD. Following this call 78 Tippit and 87 Nelson respond immediately. There is almost no gap between the 10-4 call from the previous call and the instruction to Tippit and Nelson to move. Why? Surely no drain of Oak Cliff has occurred. There is no indication that dispatch even knows that Menzel is at lunch. Also. there is no 10-4 call from Tippit or Nelson to this instruction, merely a call of their respective current positions. No 78 for Tippit is audible.
79 (Anglin) only called a position of 1400 Corinth after - so dispatch doesn't know he left his Oak Cliff district until now.
Then 93 calls asks where to go dispatch says TSBD he was also originally assigned to Oak Cliff

12.46 77 assigned to Oak Cliff asks where to report and is told the TSBD
12.48 81 arrives at the TSBD and calls out to dispatch
12.52 79 (Anglin) calls he will be out at underpass. Then 87 (Nelson) calls out down here (TSBD). This is when it would be apparent Oak Cliff is possibly needing backup. Could he have made a call at this point for Tippit to move there and it has been moved up?
Finally, Jackson's strange 12.55 call to confirm Tippit is in Oak Cliff and at to be at large for any emergency. It seemed to me the "78" on this recording sounds different to Jackson's previous 78. No so much pronounced Southern twang. When analyzed in sequence I find no evidence that a call should be made at 12.45 for Tippit to move to Oak Cliff. Possibly 10 minutes later. Initially only downtown squads were asked and reported to the scene. It was not until later that Units such as 81 responded or asked if they should attend.  Who is car 97? Even dispatch is surprised by that call.


Offline Tom Scully

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Re: DPD Tapes and a 6 Minute Discrepancy
« Reply #50 on: May 25, 2021, 05:47:00 AM »
....
Officer Nelson (87)
Nelson was well north of his assigned district when he called his position to Jackson at 12.45. He was at RL Thornton and Marsalis, many miles North of district 87. He was much closer to Oak Cliff at this time than was Tippit. Apparently Nelson ignored the call from Jackson to move to Oak Cliff and continued to the TSBD. In CE2645 it simply states he proceeded downtown as instructed. No mention of the Jackson instruction to patrol Oak Cliff. 

....

Uhhh... Henry Hurt, is that you? (Just teasing you, Colin. Please read this, if you haven't, and maybe you can explain why you agree or disagree that the cards were shuffled in this particular controversy, quite a few times.)

https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,2509.msg111782.html#new
Link above same as :

....
http://jfk.hood.edu/Collection/Weisberg%20Subject%20Index%20Files/D%20Disk/Dallas%20Police%20Department/Dallas%20Police%20Department%20Records/Volume%2004/Item%2001.pdf
12:45 pm



Next page:


Posted just two weeks ago... I don't yet know how this researcher knows it is Nelson's instruction from Jackson, but
it makes sense, considering "87 Nelson" of the page before, is unaccounted for...

https://groups.google.com/g/alt.conspiracy.jfk/c/Co1hd2nf-Fw


I just found these.... but they address only the events on Sunday morning.

https://texashistory.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metapth340168/
[Report concerning the murder of Lee Harvey Oswald] - The ...
May 12, 2021 — Report to Chief J. E. Curry by Ronald C. Nelson concerning his assignment and the murder of Lee Harvey Oswald. Nelson states that he was ...

https://texashistory.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metapth340170/
[Report from Ronald C. Nelson to Chief J. E. Curry, November ...
May 12, 2021Nelson, Ronald C. November 26, 1963. ContextBookmark this section. This report is part of the collection entitled: John F. Kennedy, Dallas Police ...
« Last Edit: May 25, 2021, 05:55:26 AM by Tom Scully »

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Re: DPD Tapes and a 6 Minute Discrepancy
« Reply #50 on: May 25, 2021, 05:47:00 AM »


Offline Colin Crow

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Re: DPD Tapes and a 6 Minute Discrepancy
« Reply #51 on: May 25, 2021, 06:02:49 AM »
Uhhh... Henry Hurt, is that you? (Just teasing you, Colin. Please read this, if you haven't, and maybe you can explain why you agree or disagree that the cards were shuffled in this particular controversy, quite a few times.)

https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,2509.msg111782.html#new
Link above same as :

Yes Tom I have read. My work was done after reading "the Car 10 where are you" piece by Bill Drenas http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/car10.htm some years back.

I also subsequently read an article by Duke Lane that came to similar conclusions. While one may argue Oak Cliff was "drained" closer to 1pm the call by Jackson and the responses by Tippit and Nelson are strange. I believe the likely answer was it was inserted to explain why Tippit was where he was.
« Last Edit: May 25, 2021, 06:12:22 AM by Colin Crow »

Offline Tom Scully

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Re: DPD Tapes and a 6 Minute Discrepancy
« Reply #52 on: May 25, 2021, 07:13:54 AM »
Yes Tom I have read. My work was done after reading "the Car 10 where are you" piece by Bill Drenas http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/car10.htm some years back.

I also subsequently read an article by Duke Lane that came to similar conclusions. While one may argue Oak Cliff was "drained" closer to 1pm the call by Jackson and the responses by Tippit and Nelson are strange. I believe the likely answer was it was inserted to explain why Tippit was where he was.

Henry Hurt originally had a big budget, "the Digest / Pam Butler, Epstein, and nearly ten years to get his book right. Why would he write what he did about Nelson except to further muddy the water while paying a cynical, backhanded compliment to Sylvia Meagher? Hurt's book was published in 1986, by Holt, not by R. D. Was there still a pressing need to make Oswald an convincing assassin via a Tippit frame?

http://jfk.hood.edu/Collection/Weisberg%20Subject%20Index%20Files/O%20Disk/Ourslee%20Fulton%20Jr/Item%2002.pdf


I tend to believe the opposite of anything Henry Hurt embraced because he seemed to be Bush's eyes and ears, and why would Bush have a need for a personal representative, on the ground, at the dawn of the HSCA inquiry?

Nelson breaks his silence...for posterity, for the children, (LOL) in 2013 :


...On November 22, 1963, Nelson was working out of the southwest substation in Dallas. He said that police were spread all over the city guarding multiple areas.

Only two people were working the south district,” Nelson said, “my partner J.D. Tippit and me. Tippit was working the entire Oak Cliff section.”
...
On a normal day, Nelson estimated there would have been 10-12 squads covering the area.

https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,2509.msg111782.html#msg111782


« Last Edit: May 25, 2021, 07:46:33 AM by Tom Scully »

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Re: DPD Tapes and a 6 Minute Discrepancy
« Reply #52 on: May 25, 2021, 07:13:54 AM »


Offline John Iacoletti

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Re: DPD Tapes and a 6 Minute Discrepancy
« Reply #53 on: June 06, 2021, 09:53:07 PM »
In my OP I have established that "police time" and "real time" were pretty much in synch.

I think what you really showed (via the McIntyre photo) is that the Hertz clock and the channel 2 dispatcher's time check at 12:30 were pretty much in sync.  Kellerman and Powers could have just looked at the Hertz clock, so they are not necessarily independent sources.

There is nothing I know of by which to assess the accuracy or calibration of the Hertz clock.

Online Mitch Todd

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Re: DPD Tapes and a 6 Minute Discrepancy
« Reply #54 on: June 07, 2021, 12:10:09 AM »
I think what you really showed (via the McIntyre photo) is that the Hertz clock and the channel 2 dispatcher's time check at 12:30 were pretty much in sync.  Kellerman and Powers could have just looked at the Hertz clock, so they are not necessarily independent sources.

There is nothing I know of by which to assess the accuracy or calibration of the Hertz clock.

This is Powers:

"We then turned off of Main Street onto Houston and made the sharp swing to the left up Elm Street. At that time we were traveling very slowly, no more than 12 miles an hour. In accordance with my custom, I was very much concerned about our timing and at just about that point I looked at my watch and noted that it was almost exactly 12:30 p.m."


And this is Greer:

"[Kellerman]  said '12:30.' He looked at his watch, he said "12:30," and we were in the underpass at the time"


There is also the testimony of Forrest Sorrels, who stated:

"As we came around Houston, yes, sir; came around on Houston, yes, because we had begun to pick up speed there. And I remember Mr. Lawson turned around and said, 'I wish he would come on, because we are late now,' or words to that effect. And I expressed to him, I said, 'Oh, we are not going to be very late.' And I looked at my watch, and it was just about 12:30"

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Re: DPD Tapes and a 6 Minute Discrepancy
« Reply #54 on: June 07, 2021, 12:10:09 AM »


Online Martin Weidmann

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Re: DPD Tapes and a 6 Minute Discrepancy
« Reply #55 on: June 07, 2021, 12:25:57 AM »
This is Powers:

"We then turned off of Main Street onto Houston and made the sharp swing to the left up Elm Street. At that time we were traveling very slowly, no more than 12 miles an hour. In accordance with my custom, I was very much concerned about our timing and at just about that point I looked at my watch and noted that it was almost exactly 12:30 p.m."


And this is Greer:

"[Kellerman]  said '12:30.' He looked at his watch, he said "12:30," and we were in the underpass at the time"


There is also the testimony of Forrest Sorrels, who stated:

"As we came around Houston, yes, sir; came around on Houston, yes, because we had begun to pick up speed there. And I remember Mr. Lawson turned around and said, 'I wish he would come on, because we are late now,' or words to that effect. And I expressed to him, I said, 'Oh, we are not going to be very late.' And I looked at my watch, and it was just about 12:30"

LN "logic"

I looked at my watch and noted that it was almost exactly 12:30 p.m."
He looked at his watch, he said "12:30,"
I looked at my watch, and it was just about 12:30"

They looked at their watch and it said....... and their watches were all correct

and then this beauty;

Bowley, when he arrived at the Tippit scene looked at his watch and it said 1:10 PM

LNr: Bowley's watch could not possibly be right because back in those days watches were highly unreliable

Amazing hypocrisy!