JFK Assassination Plus General Discussion & Debate > JFK Assassination Plus General Discussion And Debate
Oswald's shot-1 ricochet was at Z113 or Z105.
Andrew Mason:
--- Quote from: Jerry Organ on September 05, 2021, 05:30:51 AM ---The sternum is less mobile than the shoulders. And it's the chest and ribs we're most concerned with.
Leaving the sternum match in place, one could tilt the medical illustration a little to raise Connally's left shoulder, but it would not improve the elevation of the right nipple.
Maybe try it in 3D. The medical illustration is 2D and won't match up fully with a life image taken at an oblique angle.
--- End quote ---
You can't be serious! And you accuse me of confirmation bias!
How can you say you are matching the sternum location when the part where the neck connects to the shoulder is at least 4 inches higher in the zframe?
Andrew Mason:
--- Quote from: Jerry Organ on September 05, 2021, 08:30:41 AM ---Since your medical illustration shows the shoulders at rest, a "shoulder-line" match to the photo should match with how Connally's shoulders are at rest.
The right left shoulder is artificially high and the camera angle is oblique. The best you can do is match the sternum level. The sternum is approximately on the frontal plane of the upper chest, which we can see in the Zapruder film
--- End quote ---
Come on, Jerry. Anyone can see that you are not even close. As far as the sternum not moving, what are you basing that on? As far as I can tell, the whole rib cage, including the sternum is pretty flexible. Put your hand on your sternum when you twist.
As far as the left shoulder is concerned, I agree that it is not at the same level as the right, but that is because he has dropped the right. Besides, the point where the shoulder connects to the neck does not change
All you are demonstrating is that the alignment of the right nipple and wrist wounds is certainly within the range of positions that are consistent with the zfilm. I am pretty sure I could convince a panel of independent medical experts.
Dan O'meara:
--- Quote from: Jerry Organ on September 04, 2021, 01:27:08 AM ---But nothing wrong with you using a medical illustration of a person not twisted and who's standing upright.
"Connally clamps right elbow over torn-open right chest"
— "Kennedy and Lincoln", Dr. John K. Lattimer (1980)
How long is this going to go on?
--- End quote ---
"How long is this going to go on?"
The physical and video evidence demonstrate beyond a shadow of doubt that Andrew's theory of a shot passing through JBC around z271 is nonsense. It has been clearly demonstrated but he simply refuses to accept it.
If that is indeed his suggestion for the exit of the bullet labeled in your graphic it simply defies belief. It makes a mockery of common sense. To make matters worse JBC's right shoulder is noticeably lower in the Zfilm than the image of him standing making the bullet hole in the jacket even lower!!
And even if the bullet did exit where Andrew suggests, it exits on a downward trajectory and would never be able to cause the tears in the cuff of JBC's shirt.
The fact of the matter is that the bullet exits JBC's chest a lot lower and is in accord with this quote you posted:
"Connally clamps right elbow over torn-open right chest"
— "Kennedy and Lincoln", Dr. John K. Lattimer (1980)
This leaves the problem of the missing bullet as it has clearly been demonstrated there was no shot that hit any of the occupants of the limo around z271
Andrew Mason:
--- Quote from: Dan O'meara on September 07, 2021, 02:43:22 AM ---"How long is this going to go on?"
The physical and video evidence demonstrate beyond a shadow of doubt that Andrew's theory of a shot passing through JBC around z271 is nonsense. It has been clearly demonstrated but he simply refuses to accept it.
If that is indeed his suggestion for the exit of the bullet labeled in your graphic it simply defies belief. It makes a mockery of common sense. To make matters worse JBC's right shoulder is noticeably lower in the Zfilm than the image of him standing making the bullet hole in the jacket even lower!!
--- End quote ---
You are assuming the distance from the top of the shoulder to the wound location is the same in z268 as it is in a normal standing position. It is not. It is longer. The shoulders turn more than the ribs. You have to duplicate what JBC is doing to see that his right shoulder is turned farther right than his fifth rib. Using your left hand and facing forward, put your fifth finger on the fifth rib just below your right nipple and your thumb on your right shoulder. Now turn your shoulder sharply right keeping your hips facing forward keeping your fifth finger below the right nipple. Your thumb ends up 3-4 inches from the shoulder.
--- Quote ---[/i]
And even if the bullet did exit where Andrew suggests, it exits on a downward trajectory and would never be able to cause the tears in the cuff of JBC's shirt.
--- End quote ---
You obviously have missed the point that the bullet made two holes in the cuff: this one where it entered after exiting the chest:
The bullet then struck the radius and fragmented. The fragments deflected up off the back of the radius and exited back through the french cuff here:
--- Quote ---The fact of the matter is that the bullet exits JBC's chest a lot lower and is in accord with this quote you posted:
"Connally clamps right elbow over torn-open right chest"
— "Kennedy and Lincoln", Dr. John K. Lattimer (1980)
--- End quote ---
You can see Connally's torn-open right chest?
--- Quote ---This leaves the problem of the missing bullet as it has clearly been demonstrated there was no shot that hit any of the occupants of the limo around z271
--- End quote ---
So are you agreeing that there was a bullet around z271? If not, how do you explain the overwhelming number of people who specifically recalled the last two shots being close together - closer than the first two?
Dan O'meara:
--- Quote from: Andrew Mason on September 07, 2021, 11:18:40 PM --- You are assuming the distance from the top of the shoulder to the wound location is the same in z268 as it is in a normal standing position. It is not. It is longer. The shoulders turn more than the ribs. You have to duplicate what JBC is doing to see that his right shoulder is turned farther right than his fifth rib. Using your left hand and facing forward, put your fifth finger on the fifth rib just below your right nipple and your thumb on your right shoulder. Now turn your shoulder sharply right keeping your hips facing forward keeping your fifth finger below the right nipple. Your thumb ends up 3-4 inches from the shoulder.
--- End quote ---
Your usual nonsense, trying to obfuscate the issue.
Jerry's graphic, based on the exit hole in JBC's jacket, has the bullet exiting his chest close to where his elbow is pressed against his chest. Nowhere near his wrist. You have simply chosen a point based on his wrist position and are making up any old guff to try and justify it.
It is clear for anyone to see that the exit point is far lower than you are trying to convince yourself it is. It is equally clear there is no point discussing this with you as you are beyond reason.
--- Quote ---You obviously have missed the point that the bullet made two holes in the cuff: this one where it entered after exiting the chest:
The bullet then struck the radius and fragmented. The fragments deflected up off the back of the radius and exited back through the french cuff here:
--- End quote ---
Once again you demonstrate your ability to contradict yourself to make a point.
The Z-Film shows no movement of the wrist in the frames around z271. It is clear evidence that JBC's wrist is not struck by a bullet at this point. You try to wave this irrefutable evidence away by claiming it was a "glancing strike":
"Besides, his right arm appears to be pinned against the chest, probably because he is pressing his arm into the seatback. Also the bullet made a glancing strike to the back of the wrist."
Now we have you arguing that the bullet fragmented on contacted with his wrist, with some fragments deflecting "up off the back of the radius".
How is this a "glancing strike"?
The energy taken to fragment the bullet must be transferred to the object it is striking - JBC's radius.
This energy must then be transferred into some kind of movement of his hand but that's not what we see in the Z-Film.
The radius is shattered and fragments of bullet are lodged in his wrist.
How is this a "glancing strike"?
--- Quote ---
So are you agreeing that there was a bullet around z271? If not, how do you explain the overwhelming number of people who specifically recalled the last two shots being close together - closer than the first two?
--- End quote ---
We agree one the number of shots and the pattern.
As there is no strike at z271 then two possibilities exist (IMO)
1) The second shot missed and the third was the headshot.
2) The third shot missed and the second shot was the headshot.
The evidence of the Z-Film far outweighs the unreliable witness statements of those recounting a traumatic event (whether you like it or not).
Zero evidence of a strike around z271 is present in the Z-Film, so we are left with one of the two possibilities outlined.
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