JFK Assassination Plus General Discussion & Debate > JFK Assassination Plus General Discussion And Debate
Oswald's shot-1 ricochet was at Z113 or Z105.
Andrew Mason:
--- Quote from: Dan O'meara on September 08, 2021, 12:11:37 AM ---
We agree one the number of shots and the pattern.
As there is no strike at z271 then two possibilities exist (IMO)
1) The second shot missed and the third was the headshot.
2) The third shot missed and the second shot was the headshot.
The evidence of the Z-Film far outweighs the unreliable witness statements of those recounting a traumatic event (whether you like it or not).
Zero evidence of a strike around z271 is present in the Z-Film, so we are left with one of the two possibilities outlined.
--- End quote ---
Well, there is pretty good evidence that the third shot was the last shot. The Connallys, all the Secret Service agents, Altgens, the Newman's, Mary Woodward etc. So it is not like there is no evidence of a second shot after the midpoint between the neck shot and the head shot.
As far as the evidence of it hitting JBC we have the Connallys and George Hickey and Greer. Hickey's evidence is pretty useful because we can actually see the hair lift as he described it. That allows us to pinpoint when it struck. How does a bullet lift JFK's hair and not hit in the car?
Dan O'meara:
--- Quote from: Andrew Mason on September 08, 2021, 06:20:52 AM ---Well, there is pretty good evidence that the third shot was the last shot. The Connallys, all the Secret Service agents, Altgens, the Newman's, Mary Woodward etc. So it is not like there is no evidence of a second shot after the midpoint between the neck shot and the head shot.
As far as the evidence of it hitting JBC we have the Connallys and George Hickey and Greer. Hickey's evidence is pretty useful because we can actually see the hair lift as he described it. That allows us to pinpoint when it struck. How does a bullet lift JFK's hair and not hit in the car?
--- End quote ---
"...we can actually see the hair lift as he described it."
:D And here it is....the famous Hickey fringe ruffle.
You've been schooled elsewhere on this nonsense ("The First Shot" thread) so I won't be indulging you.
All I'm saying is that the evidence is conclusive - Connally was not shot through the torso around z271.
This leaves us with the options - a missed second shot or a missed third shot. I too can cherry-pick witness statements, anyone can, some that support a missed second shot and some that support a missed third shot.
The point to remember is this - the only reason you support the headshot as the third shot is to fit in with your Connally strike around z271.
The Connally strike around Z271 has been completely debunked so you don't have to be tied to the headshot = shot 3 scenario anymore.
You are free to explore other options
Andrew Mason:
--- Quote from: Dan O'meara on September 08, 2021, 10:17:59 AM ---"...we can actually see the hair lift as he described it."
:D And here it is....the famous Hickey fringe ruffle.
You've been schooled elsewhere on this nonsense ("The First Shot" thread) so I won't be indulging you.
All I'm saying is that the evidence is conclusive - Connally was not shot through the torso around z271.
This leaves us with the options - a missed second shot or a missed third shot. I too can cherry-pick witness statements, anyone can, some that support a missed second shot and some that support a missed third shot.
The point to remember is this - the only reason you support the headshot as the third shot is to fit in with your Connally strike around z271.
The Connally strike around Z271 has been completely debunked so you don't have to be tied to the headshot = shot 3 scenario anymore.
You are free to explore other options
--- End quote ---
Yes. I am free to explore other options. But the only option you present is to reject the abundant and clear evidence from dozens of witnesses, that the head shot was the last shot. You say that there was a shot when Clint Hill climbed onto the back of the car at about z360 or so. Clint Hill denied that. You suggest that he did not notice, along with everyone else in the car. You say that Oswald missed the entire car after hitting the bulls-eye 2.5 seconds earlier. For some unknown reason, you can be sure that Oswald made a drastic repositioning of the rifle for his last shot. For some unknown reason you think that Oswald was unaware that he had killed JFK on the head shot - he thought he had missed so he took another shot that really missed the entire car!
The fact is that there was nothing to aim at at z360!!! There would be absolutely no reason for Oswald to fire at z360!! And you accuse me of not wanting to explore other options!!! Here is an option I would suggest: Just follow the evidence.....
Dan O'meara:
--- Quote from: Andrew Mason on September 08, 2021, 04:39:10 PM ---Yes. I am free to explore other options. But the only option you present is to reject the abundant and clear evidence from dozens of witnesses, that the head shot was the last shot. You say that there was a shot when Clint Hill climbed onto the back of the car at about z360 or so. Clint Hill denied that. You suggest that he did not notice, along with everyone else in the car. You say that Oswald missed the entire car after hitting the bulls-eye 2.5 seconds earlier. For some unknown reason, you can be sure that Oswald made a drastic repositioning of the rifle for his last shot. For some unknown reason you think that Oswald was unaware that he had killed JFK on the head shot - he thought he had missed so he took another shot that really missed the entire car!
The fact is that there was nothing to aim at at z360!!! There would be absolutely no reason for Oswald to fire at z360!! And you accuse me of not wanting to explore other options!!! Here is an option I would suggest: Just follow the evidence.....
--- End quote ---
To make my position clear Andrew:
I don't think there is anything definitive to support a second shot miss or a third shot miss and that's that.
Anything said about Hill was presented as pure speculation whilst exploring the pros and cons of a third shot miss.
Nowhere have I stated a firm opinion on this matter as I don't believe there is evidence definitive enough to determine it one way or the other.
The only reason I favour a third shot miss is because the last two shots are so close together and it's my opinion that the more likely of these last two shots to miss would be shot 3.
Shot 1 was a hit.
It makes sense to me that, after a pause to take aim, shot 2 would be a hit.
I get the impression the shooter took his time over shot 2 but really hurried shot 3. We know it was hurried because of the many reports that shot 3 followed extremely closely after shot 2.
Other than that 'hunch' I don't have much else. As you know, it's a piece of cake to get witness statements to support almost any scenario going and there is indeed solid witness evidence that shot 3 missed but I don't put the same stock in witness statements that you do.
A shot 2 miss with a headshot at shot 3 is still a total possibility, it just seems weird to miss the shot you've taken your time on and hit with the shot you've rushed.
I have always stated the limitations of the "First Shot" model I've presented and have never shied away from solid evidence or arguments regarding the shots taken that day. The assassin must surely have seen JFK's head explode and knew there was no need for another shot. This is a strong argument against a shot 3 miss.
The only leads to follow are Tague and the potential bullet strike near the manhole cover. I believe these things are connected and are the result of the shot that missed.
Andrew Mason:
--- Quote from: Dan O'meara on September 08, 2021, 05:37:05 PM ---To make my position clear Andrew:
I don't think there is anything definitive to support a second shot miss or a third shot miss and that's that.
Anything said about Hill was presented as pure speculation whilst exploring the pros and cons of a third shot miss.
Nowhere have I stated a firm opinion on this matter as I don't believe there is evidence definitive enough to determine it one way or the other.
The only reason I favour a third shot miss is because the last two shots are so close together and it's my opinion that the more likely of these last two shots to miss would be shot 3.
Shot 1 was a hit.
It makes sense to me that, after a pause to take aim, shot 2 would be a hit.
I get the impression the shooter took his time over shot 2 but really hurried shot 3. We know it was hurried because of the many reports that shot 3 followed extremely closely after shot 2.
Other than that 'hunch' I don't have much else. As you know, it's a piece of cake to get witness statements to support almost any scenario going and there is indeed solid witness evidence that shot 3 missed but I don't put the same stock in witness statements that you do.
A shot 2 miss with a headshot at shot 3 is still a total possibility, it just seems weird to miss the shot you've taken your time on and hit with the shot you've rushed.
I have always stated the limitations of the "First Shot" model I've presented and have never shied away from solid evidence or arguments regarding the shots taken that day. The assassin must surely have seen JFK's head explode and knew there was no need for another shot. This is a strong argument against a shot 3 miss.
The only leads to follow are Tague and the potential bullet strike near the manhole cover. I believe these things are connected and are the result of the shot that missed.
--- End quote ---
A very reasonable position, Dan. Your candour is most refreshing.
But it seems to me that you are basing your preference for a third shot miss on something other than evidence. You seem to think that the last two shots being close together means that the last shot would not be accurate. But it could also be because he did not have to move the rifle between shots. If you look at the position of the rifle to make the head shot when he pulled the trigger at z309 or so and compare it to the position of the rifle to strike JBC in the right armpit around z268 or so, there is virtually no difference in the rifle position. JFK's head moves a bit to the right between those positions, that's all.
Oswald had the rifle resting on boxes of books and he had a strap holding the rifle steady. He had to reposition the rifle between the first shot and the second because the angle to the car changed significantly. But not between z269 and z310:
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