JFK Assassination Plus General Discussion & Debate > JFK Assassination Plus General Discussion And Debate

Oswald's shot-1 ricochet was at Z113 or Z105.

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Marjan Rynkiewicz:
We need 2 new Xs to mark jfk's pozzie at shot-1 & shot-2.

Pozzie of X1 (shot-1).
Stand 3ft north of the center of the center lane, just west of the overhead signals, such that a line from
Point-1A (Oswald's Carcano in the window) passes throo
Point-1B (the west edge of the west guyrod 6" north of the collar on the main pipe of the overhead signals)(old signals now gone)(new signals different i guess) & that line passes throo
Point-1C (your chest). Point-1C would have been jfk's heart back in 22nov1963). I suppose that the existing X on Elm St is a mile too far west.

Pozzie of X2 (shot-2).
Stand 3ft north of the center of the center lane, such that a line from
Point-2A (Zapruder's camera up on pedestal) passes throo
Point-2B (the midpoint of the old Stemmons sign)(now gone) & that line passes throo
Point-2C (your nose). Point-2C would have been jfk at Z218. Shot-2 of course came from the Carcano. I suppose that the existing X on Elm St is too far west.

Pozzie of X3 X4 X5 X6 (shots-3 4 5 & 6)(Hickey's AR15).
Point-3 is when jfk is at say Z300.
Point-6 is when jfk is at Z313. The existing X on Elm St is probly ok.

Marjan Rynkiewicz:
Buell Frazier might have been able to see the Oswald shot-1 ricochet hit JFK in the back of his head (xrays).
..................."My god i have been hit".

Michael T. Griffith:

--- Quote from: Marjan Rynkiewicz on December 27, 2023, 08:30:42 PM ---We need 2 new Xs to mark jfk's pozzie at shot-1 & shot-2.

Pozzie of X1 (shot-1).
Stand 3ft north of the center of the center lane, just west of the overhead signals, such that a line from
Point-1A (Oswald's Carcano in the window) passes throo
Point-1B (the west edge of the west guyrod 6" north of the collar on the main pipe of the overhead signals)(old signals now gone)(new signals different i guess) & that line passes throo
Point-1C (your chest). Point-1C would have been jfk's heart back in 22nov1963). I suppose that the existing X on Elm St is a mile too far west.

Pozzie of X2 (shot-2).
Stand 3ft north of the center of the center lane, such that a line from
Point-2A (Zapruder's camera up on pedestal) passes throo
Point-2B (the midpoint of the old Stemmons sign)(now gone) & that line passes throo
Point-2C (your nose). Point-2C would have been jfk at Z218. Shot-2 of course came from the Carcano. I suppose that the existing X on Elm St is too far west.

Pozzie of X3 X4 X5 X6 (shots-3 4 5 & 6)(Hickey's AR15).
Point-3 is when jfk is at say Z300.
Point-6 is when jfk is at Z313. The existing X on Elm St is probly ok.
--- End quote ---

For any newcomers or for those who aren't familiar with this whacky theory, this Z105-113 ricochet-shot/Z132-133-gap-shot theory is a fringe theory (1) that is demonstrably false, and (2) that nearly all researchers view as preposterous and unserious.

In Z105-113, JFK's limousine is not even on Elm Street yet. The limo is still on Houston Street during these frames. How in the world would any sixth-floor gunman have fired a shot that could have hit the guy rod/support pole of the traffic signal on Elm Street in front of the Book Depository if he had been aiming at a target that was on Houston Street during these frames? This is beyond absurd.

A version of this theory is that the sixth-floor gunman fired during the 3-4-second gap between Z132 and Z133 and hit the traffic signal's guy rod or support pole, producing ricochet fragments. According to this theory, one of the ricochet fragments traveled over 400 feet to strike the curb near James Tague with enough velocity to cause a chip in the curb and to send a chip of concrete streaking toward Tague with enough velocity to cut his face!

Some adherents to this Z132-133-gap-shot theory also posit that two other fragments from this shot struck the back of JFK's head and constitute the two back-of-head fragments seen on the skull x-rays. However, they cannot explain why JFK shows no reaction to this wounding, or to any wounding, in the 60 frames following Z133. They also refuse to face the fact that JFK's head was not in position to be struck from behind in Z133--in Z133 he is facing to the right and waving at the crowd.

The impact of the two back-of-head fragments would have caused a painful stinging sensation. One of the fragments tore through all five layers of the scalp, including the galea and the periosteum (two tough lower layers of fibrous tissue) and penetrated into the outer table of the skull. The other fragment tore through four of the five scalp layers and lodged in the periosteum (i.e., between the galea and the outer table). These penetrations would have been noticeable and painful, and would have immediately alerted JFK that something serious and threatening had just occurred. 

Yet, from Z133 until around Z194, JFK acts as though everything is fine. He continues to wave and smile at the crowd. He would not have acted like this if he had just had one bullet fragment tear through four of the five layers of his scalp and had had another bullet fragment tear through all five layers of his scalp and penetrate into his outer skull bone.

A key component of this whacky, ridiculous theory is the debunked claim that the explosive head shot in Z313 was accidentally fired by Secret Service agent George Hickey in the follow-up car. JFK aide Dave Powers was riding in the follow-up car with Hickey. When asked about the nutty claim that Hickey accidentally fired at JFK, Powers said, "someone a foot away from me or two feet away from me couldn’t fire the gun without me hearing it.” No one else in the follow-up car reported hearing Hickey fire a shot either, including another Kennedy aide, Kenny O'Donnell.

Significantly, when Kennedy O'Donnell revealed to former Speaker of the House Tip O'Neill that he heard shots from the grassy knoll, he said nothing about hearing Hickey fire a shot. Powers confirmed O'Donnell's account of hearing shots from the grassy knoll. Both men were highly critical of the Secret Service's failure to protect JFK. Neither man would have had any hesitation about revealing to O'Neill that Hickey had accidentally fired a shot toward JFK.

Marjan Rynkiewicz:
Quotes from Michael T. Griffith..........
For any newcomers or for those who aren't familiar with this whacky theory, this Z105-113 ricochet-shot/Z132-133-gap-shot theory is a fringe theory (1) that is demonstrably false, and (2) that nearly all researchers view as preposterous and unserious.
I agree with u. My own ricochet theory is correct.

In Z105-113, JFK's limousine is not even on Elm Street yet. The limo is still on Houston Street during these frames. How in the world would any sixth-floor gunman have fired a shot that could have hit the guy rod/support pole of the traffic signal on Elm Street in front of the Book Depository if he had been aiming at a target that was on Houston Street during these frames? This is beyond absurd.
The pozzie of X1 is a location on the ground. Z105 etc are not locations, they are merely estimates of when X1 happened.

A version of this theory is that the sixth-floor gunman fired during the 3-4-second gap between Z132 and Z133 and hit the traffic signal's guy rod or support pole, producing ricochet fragments. According to this theory, one of the ricochet fragments traveled over 400 feet to strike the curb near James Tague with enough velocity to cause a chip in the curb and to send a chip of concrete streaking toward Tague with enough velocity to cut his face!
I agree with u that that long distance ricochet theory is absurd.

Some adherents to this Z132-133-gap-shot theory also posit that two other fragments from this shot struck the back of JFK's head and constitute the two back-of-head fragments seen on the skull x-rays. However, they cannot explain why JFK shows no reaction to this wounding, or to any wounding, in the 60 frames following Z133. They also refuse to face the fact that JFK's head was not in position to be struck from behind in Z133--in Z133 he is facing to the right and waving at the crowd.
Yes the ricochet offa the signal arm splattered the back of jfk's head. This was at approximately pseudo Z105.
Roselle & Scearce wrote a number of papers re reactions to an early shot, alltho they had it at about Z125 i think.

The impact of the two back-of-head fragments would have caused a painful stinging sensation. One of the fragments tore through all five layers of the scalp, including the galea and the periosteum (two tough lower layers of fibrous tissue) and penetrated into the outer table of the skull. The other fragment tore through four of the five scalp layers and lodged in the periosteum (i.e., between the galea and the outer table). These penetrations would have been noticeable and painful, and would have immediately alerted JFK that something serious and threatening had just occurred. 
Blood sugar tests use a quick prick koz a quick prick is less painful than a slow prick.

Yet, from Z133 until around Z194, JFK acts as though everything is fine. He continues to wave and smile at the crowd. He would not have acted like this if he had just had one bullet fragment tear through four of the five layers of his scalp and had had another bullet fragment tear through all five layers of his scalp and penetrate into his outer skull bone.


A key component of this whacky, ridiculous theory is the debunked claim that the explosive head shot in Z313 was accidentally fired by Secret Service agent George Hickey in the follow-up car. JFK aide Dave Powers was riding in the follow-up car with Hickey. When asked about the nutty claim that Hickey accidentally fired at JFK, Powers said, "someone a foot away from me or two feet away from me couldn’t fire the gun without me hearing it.” No one else in the follow-up car reported hearing Hickey fire a shot either, including another Kennedy aide, Kenny O'Donnell.
Yes. Powers did not & would not lie. He merely uttered an obviously true statement, a statement that was not a denial. In other words, Powers never denied that he heard Hickey shoot.

Significantly, when Kennedy O'Donnell revealed to former Speaker of the House Tip O'Neill that he heard shots from the grassy knoll, he said nothing about hearing Hickey fire a shot. Powers confirmed O'Donnell's account of hearing shots from the grassy knoll. Both men were highly critical of the Secret Service's failure to protect JFK. Neither man would have had any hesitation about revealing to O'Neill that Hickey had accidentally fired a shot toward JFK.
Hearing an echo of a shot is not the same as hearing the shot. And, echoes are usually louder than the source, if the fence-wall is close, especially if the fence-wall is concave.

Marjan Rynkiewicz:

--- Quote from: Marjan Rynkiewicz on August 29, 2021, 04:35:44 AM ---Here are the timings for Oswald's shot-1 & shot-2 & for a faux shot-3.
87 ft is the horizontal dist scaled by me, 106 ft is the hypotenuse dist allowing for vertical dist estimated by me.

Oswald Shot ----------- hit at ------ fired at  ------ sound hit JFK at – Carcano = 2170 ft per sec.
1 --- 87 ft = 106 ft ----- Z113 ------ Z112.1 ---------- Z113.9 ----- camera runs at 18.3 frames per sec.
2 --- 184 ft = 197 ft---- Z218 ------- Z216.3 --------- Z219.6
3 --- 255 ft = 266 ft ---- Z313 -------- Z310.8 --------- Z315.2 -------- Oswald did not have a shot-3.
The time tween shot-1 & shot-2 is 104.2 frames, which is 5.7 sec. Holland reckoned that shot-1 was at Z106, which is an extra 7 frames, or 0.4 sec, which makes it 6.1 sec.
The time tween shot-2 & faux shot-3 is 94.5 frames, which is 5.2 sec.
Adding to 10.9 sec.

Here are the timings for Hickey's auto burst, based on there being 6 shots.
Hickey Shot ------------- hit at ------ fired at  ------ sound hit JFK at -------
6 ---- 26 ft---------------- Z313 -------- Z312.8 ---------- Z313.2 --- hit JFK in head & cracked windshield.
5 ---- AR15 = 3250 ft per sec------------ Z310.0 ---------- hit chrome trim on windshield.
4 ---- sound = 1100 ft per sec ----------- Z307.25 -------- went over the windshield, hit Elm St.
3 ---- probly 400 rpm= 6.67 rps --------- Z304.5 ---------- went over the windshield, hit Elm St.
2 ------------------------------------------- Z301.8 ----------- went over the windshield, hit Elm St.
1 ------------------------------------------- Z299.0 ---- probly hit Main St pavement & then kerb near Tague.

--- End quote ---
My calculation of Oswald's angles based on above is .....
shot-1 at Z113 is -34.8 deg. If at Holland's Z106 it is still -34.6 deg koz either way it is at the signals.
shot-2 at Z218 is -21.0 deg.
shot-3 at Z312 is -16.6 deg.

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