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Author Topic: Did Captain Fritz show Mr Oswald a Mauser?  (Read 47021 times)

Offline Walt Cakebread

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Re: Did Captain Fritz show Mr Oswald a Mauser?
« Reply #88 on: February 13, 2021, 04:53:03 PM »
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Nice and entertaining too, before the end of this post you completely contradicted yourself. The only part you get right was what I posted years ago. The only takeaway from this post is you obviously know very little about firearms. Maybe only post on subjects you know a little about.

The only takeaway from this post is you obviously know very little about firearms.

Well my friends who have been in my house and have seen my gun cabinets might disagree with you.   

you completely contradicted yourself.

Please enlighten me .....

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Re: Did Captain Fritz show Mr Oswald a Mauser?
« Reply #88 on: February 13, 2021, 04:53:03 PM »


Online Mitch Todd

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Re: Did Captain Fritz show Mr Oswald a Mauser?
« Reply #89 on: February 13, 2021, 04:56:33 PM »
For the same reason I started looking for a backgrounder after I sat down and read his full testimony. He comes off being full of BS.

Online Mitch Todd

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Re: Did Captain Fritz show Mr Oswald a Mauser?
« Reply #90 on: February 13, 2021, 05:09:31 PM »
The only takeaway from this post is you obviously know very little about firearms.

Well my friends who have been in my house and have seen my gun cabinets might disagree with you.   

you completely contradicted yourself.

Please enlighten me .....
What's the difference between "30 odd six" and "30 odd size six"? I mean, other than quality control [rimshot].

The first is how many people pronounce ".30-06," as you've noted. The second is what Rowland said.

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Re: Did Captain Fritz show Mr Oswald a Mauser?
« Reply #90 on: February 13, 2021, 05:09:31 PM »


Offline Walt Cakebread

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Re: Did Captain Fritz show Mr Oswald a Mauser?
« Reply #91 on: February 13, 2021, 06:13:30 PM »
For the same reason I started looking for a backgrounder after I sat down and read his full testimony. He comes off being full of BS.

I disagree.... Rowland appears to be intelligent but uneducated kid.... and ignorant when it comes to guns.

However he was a definite threat to the official tale ( That Lee Oswald had fired that old MILITARY style rifle and murdered  JFK)

Rowland KNEW that he had seen a man who DID NOT fit the description of Lee Oswald, who was holding a rifle hat did not fit the description of a Mannlicher Carcano.   Rowland's story had to be destroyed....

Online Dan O'meara

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Re: Did Captain Fritz show Mr Oswald a Mauser?
« Reply #92 on: February 14, 2021, 04:19:29 AM »
300 feet comes from Google Maps. The Rowlands are very specific as to their location. Google maps says that their position is about 280 feet from the column of windows in the SW corner of the TSBD; while the 6th floor window sill is about 65' above ground. Not sure how that Pythagoruses out, but the result should round to about 300 feet.
"Deer rifle" is pretty generic. Most deer hunters I know seem to prefer lever guns for the task, but 'deer rifle' is a pretty generic term for a bolt action rifle. ".30-06" is a cartridge, rather than a type of rifle.
He signed the affidavit as being "true and correct to the best of my knowledge and belief."

A few days later, he executed another statement to the FBI wherein he said that the man with the rifle was 12-15 feet inside the window.
Sometimes, highly detailed memories are red flags, and ought to be treated with some skepticism.

As I said, read his testimony --and his wife's-- as to his background, and you'll come up with a different impression of the guy. If nothing else, count up how many jobs he's held in the year leading up to Mrs Rowland's WC deposition. I get:

West Foods (Salem Oregon)
Exchange Lumber (Salem)
Myron Frank (Salem)
Pizza Inn (Dallas)
Sanger Harris (Dallas)
Civic Reading Club (Dallas)
P.F. Collier (Dallas)
Life Circulation (Dallas)
 
The Rowlands were married May 16,1963. The next day they moved to Oregon, where they stayed until September.  In their Nov 22, 1963  DCSD affidavits, the list 3026 Hammerly in Dallas. In their Mar 10, 1964  WC depositions, they  said that they lived at 1131 Phinney, also in Dallas. Then there's the Feb 19, 1964  DCSD Det. Rose report regarding trying to find the Rowlands' whereabouts. Rose finds out that that the Rowlands no longer live at the Hammerly address (which belonged to Barbara's mother). Rowland's in-laws don't know where the young couple moved to. He checks with Adamson high school, where the Rowlands attended high school in the fall of '63. School records indicate that the Arnold and Barbara live at 809 S Marsalis, which turns out to be  a "fictitious address,'" as Detective Rose notes. He's able to get a PO box from the Rowland in-laws, and finds that Rowland lists an address at 4114 Lakehurst Ct. However, the Rowlands only lived on Lakehurst from September 11, 1963 to November 14, 1963. Interestingly, that particular PO box was rented to the Rowlands on November 21, 1963, a week after the Rowlands vacated the Lakehurst address used to rent the box. 

These aren't people with particularly stable lives. There's usually a reason  for that. It's often not a good one.

Or, you can figure out if he's actually graduated from high school --there seems to be some question about that.

Mr. SPECTER - When did you graduate from high school?
Mr. ROWLAND - June 1963.

However....

Mr. BELIN. Is your husband a high school graduate or not?
Mrs. ROWLAND. No.
[...]
Mr. BELIN. Do you know how far your husband got through school?
Mrs. ROWLAND. Well, his credits are all mixed up. I think he lacks one or two semesters.
Mr. BELIN. Of completing high school?
Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes.

And there's some differences about grades:

Mr. SPECTER - Mr. Rowland, what was the quality of your grades in high school?
Mr. ROWLAND - Well, up until my senior year they were 4.0 straight A's, in my senior year I got a couple of B's.

Mr. BELIN. Do you know about what his grades were?
Mrs. ROWLAND. Varied.
Mr. BELIN. What do you mean by that?
Mrs. ROWLAND. He made A's and B's in some subjects, and he made C's and D's, I think, in other subjects.
Mr. BELIN. Was this before .you were married?
Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes. He says he has an A average, but I don't believe him.
Mr. BELIN. Why? Did he tell you that?
Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes. He told me that, because I saw a few of his report cards.
Mr. BELIN. Pardon?
Mrs. ROWLAND. I saw a few of his report cards and they weren't all A's.


Not to beat on him too hard, we have this exchange:

Mr. SPECTER - Was the sound of the fire different from the first and second sounds you described?
Mr. ROWLAND - No, that is just it. It did not sound as though there was any return fire in that sense.
Mr. SPECTER - What do you mean by return fire?
Mr. ROWLAND - That anyone fired back. You know, anyone in the procession such as our detectives or Secret Service men fired back at anything else. It gave the report of a rifle which most of the Secret Service men don't carry in a holster although I am sure they had some in the cars but the following two shots were the same report being of the same intensity, I state, because from a different position I know that the same rifle is not going to make the same sound in two different positions especially in a position such as it was, because of the ricocheting of sound and echo effects.
Mr. SPECTER - What is your basis for saying that, Mr. Rowland, that the rifle would not make the same sound in two different positions?
Mr. ROWLAND - This is due to a long study of sound and study of echo effects.
Mr. SPECTER - When had you conducted that study?
Mr. ROWLAND - In physics in the past 3 years.
Mr. SPECTER - Have you read any special books on that subject?
Mr. ROWLAND - Quite a few.
Mr. SPECTER - Do you recollect any of the titles and authors?
Mr. ROWLAND - No; I do not.
Mr. SPECTER - Did you take any special courses which would give you insight into that subject matter?
Mr. ROWLAND - This was more or less on my own initiative. The instructor gave me help and aided me when I requested this during my off periods of class.
Mr. SPECTER - What instructor was that?
Mr. ROWLAND - His name was Foster.
Mr. SPECTER - Do you recall his first name?
Mr. ROWLAND - Sam.

[...]

Senator COOPER - You said earlier that you had been much interested in and pursued studies in sounds, I believe?
Mr. ROWLAND - I have studied quite a bit of electronics, sound. Math and science is what I like.
Senator COOPER - You said you had read books on this subject. Did you ever conduct any experiments yourself?
Mr. ROWLAND - Yes; in the form of--there is a theory that sound is a basis of a transmitter and a receiver, that you have to have a receiver to have sound. There is a theory that if a tree falls down in the middle of a forest and there is nobody around where they can hear it, there is no sound.
Well, I have conducted experiments on this, and I--it is very interesting, very fascinating, but you can't prove it or you can't disprove it because if you have got a microphone there you have got a receiver.
Senator COOPER - Did you ever conduct any experiments with rifles, firing a rifle in relation to sound?
Mr. ROWLAND - Yes; in a firing range.
Senator COOPER - Beg pardon?
Mr. ROWLAND - Firing range.
Senator COOPER - Yes.
Mr. ROWLAND - I did conduct a few experiments. One of them was firing a bullet over water; you know, we were using a set of wood blocks to fire into, so we had a big vat of water that we were firing over, and we had several different articles and composition floating on the water, trying to measure the effect of the sound wave upon that. Such as this we did conduct.
Senator COOPER - I think you did say that when you heard the first report that you considered it to be a rifle shot?

And, finally, this:

Mrs. ROWLAND. At times my husband is prone to exaggerate. Does that answer it?
Mr. BELIN. I think it does.
Is there anything else you want to add to that, or not?
Mrs. ROWLAND. Usually his exaggerations are not concerned with anything other than himself. They are usually to boast his ego. They usually say that he is really smarter than he is, or he is a better salesman than he is, something like that.

The important thing about Barbara Rowland's isn't whether or not she thinks her husband is a bit of a dick, it's that she independently confirms everything about his observation of the man with the rifle. It's one thing Arnold Rowland making a statement that may or may not be considered unreliable, it's a totally different thing when it is independently corroborated by someone who was with him at the time.
She confirms they were talking about Adlai Stevenson and security measures:

"Mrs. ROWLAND. Well, my husband and I were talking about Mr. Stevenson's visit and the way the people had acted, and we were talking about security measures, and he said he saw a man on the sixth floor of the School Book Depository Building, and when I looked up there I didn't see the man, because I didn't know exactly what window he was talking about at first.
And when I found out which window it was, the man had apparently stepped back, because I didn't see him."


She confirms which window the man was at:

"Mrs. ROWLAND. It was the far left-hand window."


She confirms the man had a rifle:

"Mrs. ROWLAND. He told me that he saw a man there who looked like he was holding a rifle, and that it must be a security man guarding the motorcade."

And she confirms Arnold's general description of the man he saw:

Mrs. ROWLAND. Apparently he could see at least from the waist up, because he said that the man was wearing a light shirt, and that he was holding the rifle at a port arms position.

Mrs. ROWLAND. He said he thought he was white.

Mrs. ROWLAND. He said a young man

Mrs. ROWLAND. He said he was either tall or thin I mean, if he was tall, he could have been well built, but if he was not very tall, then he was thin.

Mr. BELIN. Did he say anything else about the man?
Mrs. ROWLAND. Not that I remember, except that he was wearing a light colored shirt or jacket.


It appears Belin even tries to catch her out with a trick question but she doesn't bite:

"Mr. BELIN. Did he say whether or not the man had on a hat?
Mrs. ROWLAND. I don't think he said whether he did or not. But if he had seen a hat, I think he would have said so."


She confirms what time it happened:

"Mr. BELIN. About how many minutes was this before the motorcade came by that he saw this?
Mrs. ROWLAND. About 15 minutes."


She even confirms the little detail about people laughing after the first shot:

"...I didn't recognize it as being a shot. I just heard a sound, and I thought it might be a firecracker.
And the people started laughing at first, and then we heard two more shots, and they were closer than the first and second, and that is all."


It's easy to undermine a lone voice, but not when there is independent corroboration of that voice.

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Re: Did Captain Fritz show Mr Oswald a Mauser?
« Reply #92 on: February 14, 2021, 04:19:29 AM »


Online Mitch Todd

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Re: Did Captain Fritz show Mr Oswald a Mauser?
« Reply #93 on: February 14, 2021, 05:24:45 AM »
The important thing about Barbara Rowland's isn't whether or not she thinks her husband is a bit of a dick, it's that she independently confirms everything about his observation of the man with the rifle. It's one thing Arnold Rowland making a statement that may or may not be considered unreliable, it's a totally different thing when it is independently corroborated by someone who was with him at the time.
She confirms they were talking about Adlai Stevenson and security measures:

"Mrs. ROWLAND. Well, my husband and I were talking about Mr. Stevenson's visit and the way the people had acted, and we were talking about security measures, and he said he saw a man on the sixth floor of the School Book Depository Building, and when I looked up there I didn't see the man, because I didn't know exactly what window he was talking about at first.
And when I found out which window it was, the man had apparently stepped back, because I didn't see him."


She confirms which window the man was at:

"Mrs. ROWLAND. It was the far left-hand window."


She confirms the man had a rifle:

"Mrs. ROWLAND. He told me that he saw a man there who looked like he was holding a rifle, and that it must be a security man guarding the motorcade."

And she confirms Arnold's general description of the man he saw:

Mrs. ROWLAND. Apparently he could see at least from the waist up, because he said that the man was wearing a light shirt, and that he was holding the rifle at a port arms position.

Mrs. ROWLAND. He said he thought he was white.

Mrs. ROWLAND. He said a young man

Mrs. ROWLAND. He said he was either tall or thin I mean, if he was tall, he could have been well built, but if he was not very tall, then he was thin.

Mr. BELIN. Did he say anything else about the man?
Mrs. ROWLAND. Not that I remember, except that he was wearing a light colored shirt or jacket.


It appears Belin even tries to catch her out with a trick question but she doesn't bite:

"Mr. BELIN. Did he say whether or not the man had on a hat?
Mrs. ROWLAND. I don't think he said whether he did or not. But if he had seen a hat, I think he would have said so."


She confirms what time it happened:

"Mr. BELIN. About how many minutes was this before the motorcade came by that he saw this?
Mrs. ROWLAND. About 15 minutes."


She even confirms the little detail about people laughing after the first shot:

"...I didn't recognize it as being a shot. I just heard a sound, and I thought it might be a firecracker.
And the people started laughing at first, and then we heard two more shots, and they were closer than the first and second, and that is all."


It's easy to undermine a lone voice, but not when there is independent corroboration of that voice.
She didn't confirm the one thing that you need her to. You need confirmation that there was a man with a rifle in the SW corner window on the 6th floor of the TSBD, but there is no one to answer the call. Not even Arnold's wife. You wasted the miserable lives of countless electrons just to try and talk your way around the problem.

I'm thinking that Rowland's mention of the man being "12-15 feet" inside the building has dissuaded you from continuing to press the idea that the 15 foot estimate was some fluke in Rawland's DCSD affidavit?

« Last Edit: February 15, 2021, 12:46:52 AM by Mitch Todd »

Offline Bill Chapman

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Re: Did Captain Fritz show Mr Oswald a Mauser?
« Reply #94 on: February 14, 2021, 08:42:36 AM »
The important thing about Barbara Rowland's isn't whether or not she thinks her husband is a bit of a dick, it's that she independently confirms everything about his observation of the man with the rifle. It's one thing Arnold Rowland making a statement that may or may not be considered unreliable, it's a totally different thing when it is independently corroborated by someone who was with him at the time.
She confirms they were talking about Adlai Stevenson and security measures:

"Mrs. ROWLAND. Well, my husband and I were talking about Mr. Stevenson's visit and the way the people had acted, and we were talking about security measures, and he said he saw a man on the sixth floor of the School Book Depository Building, and when I looked up there I didn't see the man, because I didn't know exactly what window he was talking about at first.
And when I found out which window it was, the man had apparently stepped back, because I didn't see him."


She confirms which window the man was at:

"Mrs. ROWLAND. It was the far left-hand window."


She confirms the man had a rifle:

"Mrs. ROWLAND. He told me that he saw a man there who looked like he was holding a rifle, and that it must be a security man guarding the motorcade."

And she confirms Arnold's general description of the man he saw:

Mrs. ROWLAND. Apparently he could see at least from the waist up, because he said that the man was wearing a light shirt, and that he was holding the rifle at a port arms position.

Mrs. ROWLAND. He said he thought he was white.

Mrs. ROWLAND. He said a young man

Mrs. ROWLAND. He said he was either tall or thin I mean, if he was tall, he could have been well built, but if he was not very tall, then he was thin.

Mr. BELIN. Did he say anything else about the man?
Mrs. ROWLAND. Not that I remember, except that he was wearing a light colored shirt or jacket.


It appears Belin even tries to catch her out with a trick question but she doesn't bite:

"Mr. BELIN. Did he say whether or not the man had on a hat?
Mrs. ROWLAND. I don't think he said whether he did or not. But if he had seen a hat, I think he would have said so."


She confirms what time it happened:

"Mr. BELIN. About how many minutes was this before the motorcade came by that he saw this?
Mrs. ROWLAND. About 15 minutes."


She even confirms the little detail about people laughing after the first shot:

"...I didn't recognize it as being a shot. I just heard a sound, and I thought it might be a firecracker.
And the people started laughing at first, and then we heard two more shots, and they were closer than the first and second, and that is all."


It's easy to undermine a lone voice, but not when there is independent corroboration of that voice.

So she said he said. But did she see what he said he saw regarding the man he said he saw in a window? It doesn't sound like it.

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Re: Did Captain Fritz show Mr Oswald a Mauser?
« Reply #94 on: February 14, 2021, 08:42:36 AM »


Online Dan O'meara

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Re: Did Captain Fritz show Mr Oswald a Mauser?
« Reply #95 on: February 14, 2021, 03:43:54 PM »
So she said he said. But did she see what he said he saw regarding the man he said he saw in a window? It doesn't sound like it.

 ;D
Brilliant analysis Bill.

Barbara Rowland is not testifying to seeing the man with the rifle.

She is testifying that all the details regarding Arnold's claims are true. He did see this man at the time he says he did and described him at that time - unless, of course, Arnold made it all up on the spot and told Barbara a pack of lies which he then went on to tell the WC.
I know what my money is on.