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Author Topic: Then went inside with the curtain rods  (Read 434570 times)

Online Martin Weidmann

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Re: Then went inside with the curtain rods
« Reply #532 on: February 15, 2021, 07:05:46 PM »
The fact that Oswald COULD have purchased his rifle in person does not in any way diminish the documentary evidence that confirms he DID purchase a rifle from Klein's.  You believe it would be necessary to find the person who actually packaged the rifle and have them confirm months or years later that he/she sent a specific rifle to someone to confirm this fact?  Incredible.  Has that ever been necessary in the history of crime when there are corresponding documents that confirm this fact?  This person would likely have no memory of who was mailed a rifle months after the fact.  They just put the gun in a package and someone mailed it out.  They may have done this hundreds or thousands of times.  The documents prove beyond any doubt that an order was received and processed for this rifle to Oswald's PO Box.  It has a specific serial number.  It was not in Klein's possession.  How does it wind up in Oswald's place of employment?  A rifle with the exact same serial number that Klein's indicates that they sent to his PO Box.  Much of this evidence exists prior to the assassination, is discovered at the crime scene, and/or is confirmed within hours of the assassination.  Honestly, you seem like a person of average intelligence.  When you dispute obvious facts like Oswald's ownership of this rifle, it undermines your credibility on any other matter.

The fact that Oswald COULD have purchased his rifle in person does not in any way diminish the documentary evidence that confirms he DID purchase a rifle from Klein's.

What documentary evidence exactly confirms that Oswald purchased the MC rifle from Klein's?

All there is are photocopies of an order form, an envelope and a money order which one FBI expert claimed were written by Oswald. That's it! All the other documents produced by Klein's internally is derived from the order form and money order. Those internal documents prove nothing more than that Klein's processed an order!

You believe it would be necessary to find the person who actually packaged the rifle and have them confirm months or years later that he/she sent a specific rifle to someone to confirm this fact?  Incredible. 

That person would stand a hell of a better chance of remembering than a VP who had no part in the transaction and who only confirms what is shown on some internal documents, without actually knowing a damned thing for sure about the transaction.

Has that ever been necessary in the history of crime when there are corresponding documents that confirm this fact?  This person would likely have no memory of who was mailed a rifle months after the fact.  They just put the gun in a package and someone mailed it out.  They may have done this hundreds or thousands of times.

Don't underestimate a person's ability to recollect information or notice anomalies in the paperwork, if there are any. In any event, the person handling the transaction would have written the serial number on Waldman 7 and that alone could authenticate the actual document. But perhaps the WC wasn't after authentication and preferred easily manipulated photo copies...

The documents prove beyond any doubt that an order was received and processed for this rifle to Oswald's PO Box.

No they don't prove that at all.

It was not in Klein's possession.

Of course not.... Waldman confirmed that according to Waldman 07 it was shipped by Parcel Post. So where is the receipt of Parcel Post?

How does it wind up in Oswald's place of employment?

Obviously somebody put it there. Too bad that the rifle, when it was found, had no prints on it that one would expect there to be when somebody places a rifle between some boxes. Oh yeah, I forgot... Oswald must have wiped the rifle clean to avoid being linked to it, right? A bit silly, don't you think, after first leaving a massive and easy to follow trail behind at Klein's and with the BY photos....But I'm sure in your mind it makes perfect sense, right?

A rifle with the exact same serial number that Klein's indicates that they sent to his PO Box.

When exactly did somebody write the serial number on Waldman 07? Do you know?

Much of this evidence exists prior to the assassination, is discovered at the crime scene, and/or is confirmed within hours of the assassination.

How do you know what evidence existed prior to the assassination?

Honestly, you seem like a person of average intelligence. 

Says the guy who fools himself in believing he is smarter than everybody else, yet he still supports Trump... Go figure!

When you dispute obvious facts like Oswald's ownership of this rifle, it undermines your credibility on any other matter.

When you jump like conclusions not supported by the actual evidence, it doesn't undermine your credibility, it completely destroys it. There are so many variables in play here, that there is nothing obvious about Oswald's alleged ownership of the MC rifle.

I can easily provide a completely different narrative, based on the same evidence, that justifies the conclusion that Oswald was manipulated and that it never was his rifle! That's how pathetically poor quality the evidence is.
« Last Edit: February 15, 2021, 10:41:10 PM by Martin Weidmann »

Online Dan O'meara

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Re: Then went inside with the curtain rods
« Reply #533 on: February 15, 2021, 07:10:54 PM »
Wow.  I couldn't conjure up a better example of the application of the impossible standard of proof to suggest false doubt than this one.  It is a real keeper.  Klein's received an order for a rifle from someone using an alias associated with Oswald.  The form also references a PO Box that belongs to Oswald.  Handwriting experts confirm that Oswald filled this form in.  Klein's processed payment for this rifle and documented that it had a specific serial number.  The same serial number that is on the rifle found at the TSBD.  Oswald's place of employment.  There are photos of Oswald holding his rifle.  See any theme?  And you are suggesting there is doubt because the specific person who shipped the rifle wasn't asked to testify?  A person whose job it would be to ship rifles all day long.  Instead Klein's relied upon its own documentation to support the fact.  It's incredible rabbit hole nonsense to suggest there is doubt because the documents were used.  Imagine that legal standard in any criminal investigation.  It would be deemed insufficient to link a suspect to a firearm based on documentation that they bought the weapon.  Instead we need the person who sold it to them to remember months or years later what happened or there would be "doubt." HA HA HA.  There is no doubt that Klein's sent this rifle to Oswald's PO Box.  None.   

Mr. BELIN. Mr. Waldman, you have just put the microfilm which we call D-77 into your viewer which is marked a Microfilm Reader-Printer, and you have identified this as No. 270502, according to your records. Is this just a record number of yours on this particular shipment?
Mr. WALDMAN. That's a number which we assign for identification purposes.
Mr. BELIN. And on the microfilm record, would you please state who it shows this particular rifle was shipped
Mr. WALDMAN. Shipped to a Mr. A.--last name H-i-d-e-l-l, Post Office Box 2915, Dallas, Tex.
Mr. BELIN. And does it show arts' serial number or control number?
Mr. WALDMAN. It shows shipment of a rifle bearing our control number VC-836 and serial number C-2766.

A perfect example of what I was talking about  - many threads of evidence woven together into a seamless narrative.
The counter-narrative being - all the evidence was faked and all the witnesses manipulated.

Put those two narratives before a jury and see what happens.

To abuse a Frank Zappa quote - I'm not a LNer but there's a whole lotta times I wish I could say I'm not a CTer

Online Martin Weidmann

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Re: Then went inside with the curtain rods
« Reply #534 on: February 15, 2021, 07:26:59 PM »
A perfect example of what I was talking about  - many threads of evidence woven together into a seamless narrative.
The counter-narrative being - all the evidence was faked and all the witnesses manipulated.

Put those two narratives before a jury and see what happens.

To abuse a Frank Zappa quote - I'm not a LNer but there's a whole lotta times I wish I could say I'm not a CTer

You are looking at the house. Try looking at the foundations!

Online Dan O'meara

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Re: Then went inside with the curtain rods
« Reply #535 on: February 15, 2021, 07:35:35 PM »
Just because Frazier is out by his estimation of its length by a few inches doesn't mean anything as he's not really paying attention to it.

Pay attention Mr O....  Not only did Mr Frazier and his sister swear that the paper sack that Lee carried was no longer than 28 inches.... Mr Frazier has always maintained that the sack that he saw on the seat of his 53 Chevy, was constructed from LIGHT WEIGHT "FLIMSY" brown paper ...  The bag in evidence is constructed from HEAVY WEIGHT paper.

You've missed the point of the post Walt...
...but if I was a LNer I'd say the following:

" Mr Frazier and his sister swear that the paper sack that Lee carried was no longer than 28 inches."


What did they measure it with?
Was it just a guess?

"Mr Frazier has always maintained that the sack that he saw on the seat of his 53 Chevy, was constructed from LIGHT WEIGHT "FLIMSY" brown paper ...  The bag in evidence is constructed from HEAVY WEIGHT paper."

Then how do you explain this quote:

Mr. BALL - The paper, was the color of the paper, that you would get in a grocery store, is that it, a bag in a grocery store?
Mr. FRAZIER - Right. You have seen, not a real light color but you know normally, the normal color about the same color, you have seen these kinds of heavy duty bags you know like you obtain from the grocery store, something like that, about the same color of that, paper sack you get there.

And round and round we would go.


« Last Edit: February 15, 2021, 07:36:32 PM by Dan O'meara »

Online Martin Weidmann

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Re: Then went inside with the curtain rods
« Reply #536 on: February 15, 2021, 08:32:17 PM »
A perfect example of what I was talking about  - many threads of evidence woven together into a seamless narrative.
The counter-narrative being - all the evidence was faked and all the witnesses manipulated.

Put those two narratives before a jury and see what happens.

To abuse a Frank Zappa quote - I'm not a LNer but there's a whole lotta times I wish I could say I'm not a CTer

A perfect example of what I was talking about  - many threads of evidence woven together into a seamless narrative.

A "seamless narrative" full of assumptions, speculation and witnesses being ignored and/or called "mistaken".

The counter-narrative being - all the evidence was faked and all the witnesses manipulated.

That's not the real counter-narrative. It's what the LNs claim the counter-narrative is. But maybe some people do not understand the difference between faked evidence and manipulated evidence....


Offline Walt Cakebread

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Re: Then went inside with the curtain rods
« Reply #537 on: February 15, 2021, 09:30:58 PM »
Ah, but witness after witness said the sixth floor shooter was wearing either a reddish shirt or a white (or white-ish) t-shirt with a collar. You can't seriously be suggesting that the uncanny match here with Mr Oswald's attire is a coincidence? Come on...........

witness after witness said the sixth floor shooter was wearing either a reddish shirt or a white (or white-ish) t-shirt with a collar.

OK Mr F....Present a single witness who described the sixth floor man's shirt as being "reddish"  Just One...

Offline Alan Ford

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Re: Then went inside with the curtain rods
« Reply #538 on: February 15, 2021, 11:07:26 PM »
witness after witness said the sixth floor shooter was wearing either a reddish shirt or a white (or white-ish) t-shirt with a collar.

OK Mr F....Present a single witness who described the sixth floor man's shirt as being "reddish"  Just One...

Good grief!