The Bus Stop Farce

[Martin Weidmann]

But, the problem for you is that you are using Bowles' words to suggest that it is possible that the clocks were off by as much as six or seven minutes, while Bowles tells you they may be off by two minutes maximum at any given time.

Bowles said that "it was not uncommon for the time stamped on calls to be a minute to two ahead or behind the "official" time shown on the master clock." He did not say that the clocks themselves "may be off by two minutes maximum".

He did say "A master clock on the telephone room wall was connected to the City Hall system. This clock reported "official" time." but did not mention that "official time" was the same as real time!

He also said; "Telephone operators and radio operators were furnished "Simplex" clocks. Because the hands often worked loose, they indicated the incorrect time." and when the clocks show the incorrect time, the time calls on the DPD recordings and transcripts derived from them are also incorrect.

And he said; "Radio operators were also furnished with 12-hour digital clocks to facilitate their time references when they were not using call sheets containing stamped time. These digital clocks were not synchronized with any time standard. Therefore, the time "actual" and time "broadcast" could easily be a minute or so apart."

Dispatchers worked with clocks that were either known to be incorrect and/or were not synchronized with any time standard. There was no guarantee that any of those clocks matched the time on the master clock, nor was there any certainty that the time on the master clock was in fact the same as real time. And then, on top of it all, the dispatcher could give out a time on the radio that did not correspond with the time on the clock he was using.

I am not even sure where you are getting the 6 or 7 minutes from. According to the transcripts Bowley called the dispatcher somewhere after the 1.16 time call. Bowley said he arrived at the scene at 1.10 (according to his watch) so I would argue that it's possible he actually made the call to the dispatcher at around 1.11. That makes the difference only some 5 minutes. And if Bowley's watch was one minute slow, the difference would only be 4 minutes.

[Bill Brown]

Bowles said that "it was not uncommon for the time stamped on calls to be a minute to two ahead or behind the "official" time shown on the master clock." He did not say that the clocks themselves "may be off by two minutes maximum".

He did say "A master clock on the telephone room wall was connected to the City Hall system. This clock reported "official" time." but did not mention that "official time" was the same as real time!

He also said; "Telephone operators and radio operators were furnished "Simplex" clocks. Because the hands often worked loose, they indicated the incorrect time." and when the clocks show the incorrect time, the time calls on the DPD recordings and transcripts derived from them are also incorrect.

And he said; "Radio operators were also furnished with 12-hour digital clocks to facilitate their time references when they were not using call sheets containing stamped time. These digital clocks were not synchronized with any time standard. Therefore, the time "actual" and time "broadcast" could easily be a minute or so apart."

Dispatchers worked with clocks that were either known to be incorrect and/or were not synchronized with any time standard. There was no guarantee that any of those clocks matched the time on the master clock, nor was there any certainty that the time on the master clock was in fact the same as real time. And then, on top of it all, the dispatcher could give out a time on the radio that did not correspond with the time on the clock he was using.

I am not even sure where you are getting the 6 or 7 minutes from. According to the transcripts Bowley called the dispatcher somewhere after the 1.16 time call. Bowley said he arrived at the scene at 1.10 (according to his watch) so I would argue that it's possible he actually made the call to the dispatcher at around 1.11. That makes the difference only some 5 minutes. And if Bowley's watch was one minute slow, the difference would only be 4 minutes.

Bowley made the report on the police radio at 1:17.

Nothing in Bowles' statements suggest that the clocks were off by as much as six or seven minutes, which is how much they would have to be off if in reality Bowley reported the shooting at 1:11, as you suggest.

[Charles Collins]

You have been doing so all the time. No need to convince me of that.

You compare apples and oranges. The comment you have quoted relates to the so-called open mike episode, where an open mike caused the recording device to record without interruption for some 5 minutes. Obviously, any time statements during that period can not be more than a second or two off, because the continuous recording makes it possible to check the exact times during that period.

But I don’t claim that that sentence means all of the time statements, on both channels, all day long.

Because that would be disingenuous at best, as the time stamps called out by the dispatchers are all individual items recorded on a voice activated system and thus can not be verified in a similar manner than during the 5 minute open mike episode.

It is way too complicated to argue this stuff on this forum.

No it isn't. It's very simple actually. Bowles explained in great deal how the system of clocks and time calls related to eachother and why none of it is reliable.

What you seem to fail to comprehend is that Bowles’ report is in rebuttal to the acoustics report.

I've understood that from day one, which is why it is so interesting that in his effort to discredit the acoustics report he actually gave away the game regarding the reliability of the time calls made by the dispatchers. I don't believe that was his intention, but there it was anyway.

I can not make a misrepresentation of something by not saying that particular something. I have never claimed that Bowles has indicated that the time could be 6 or 7 minutes off. I have merely stated that the times given on the transcripts can not be relied upon simply because Bowles has confirmed and explained in great detail that the system of clocks can not be relied upon to give the actual time. I also have never claimed that Bowley's watch was 100% accurate.

Nope... Double hearsay is double hearsay. The dispatcher never produced his sheet and the time he allegedly gave Scoggins does not even match the times on the DPD transcripts.

For example; according to the DPD transcripts the ambulance was called at 1.18. As the funeral home from where it came was only a block away, on Jefferson, the ambulance arrived straight away, probably in less than a minute. Yet, Scoggings claimed that he called his dispatcher when the ambulance got there and allegedly according to his dispatcher that was at 1.23. It doesn't add up. In one of my previous posts I have already destroyed your entire Scoggins story, so I am done repeating it to you again. You can go back and read it or not. Either way I don't care, your Scoggins story is a fairytale.

Because that would be disingenuous at best, as the time stamps called out by the dispatchers are all individual items recorded on a voice activated system and thus can not be verified in a similar manner than during the 5 minute open mike episode.

A repeat of what I posted, from Bowles’ report, above:

By noting the stated times and the duration of messages in the minutes preceding the incident of the open microphone, I have, for practical purposes, fixed the time for the start of the five-minute open mike episode at 12:29:10 p.m. (Channel 1 time)

Bowles determined the time of the start of that open mike period based on (what he says). There is no reason that a similar method could not be applied to a particular point in the time frame of the recordings during the period of the Tippit shooting.


No it isn't. It's very simple actually. Bowles explained in great deal how the system of clocks and time calls related to eachother and why none of it is reliable.

Yeah, like I indicated, not reliable enough to tie something down to a tenth of a second. The report is very long and detailed with one aspect depending on the correct understandings of other aspects. And you only accept the parts that you want to. There is no point in trying to discuss this. The report speaks for itself.


Scoggins time does not need to match the DPD time. Why do you insist that it must? If the DPD time is off a minute or two, and the cab company’s time is off a minute or two, and the dispatcher delayed his recording of the call to notify the police; then there is no conflict between them. So the conflict between Bowley’s watch and the other two times is what is in dispute. You can believe what you want. I really don’t care. But there is no way that I will believe that both the DPD and the cab company’s time are off by 6 or 7 minutes.

[Martin Weidmann]

Bowley made the report on the police radio at 1:17.

Nothing in Bowles' statements suggest that the clocks were off by as much as six or seven minutes, which is how much they would have to be off if in reality Bowley reported the shooting at 1:11, as you suggest.

Bowley made the report on the police radio at 1:17.

Says who? The DPD transcripts I have seen do not mention a 1.17 time call.

But let's assume that you are correct and let's also assume that the time stamps called by the dispatchers were spot on. This would mean that he arrived on the scene at around 1.15 or 1.16. If that's true, what in the world was Markham still doing there? Wasn't she supposed to have been on her regular bus, or at least at the bus stop on Jefferson by 1.15?

Nothing in Bowles' statements suggest that the clocks were off by as much as six or seven minutes, which is how much they would have to be off if in reality Bowley reported the shooting at 1:11, as you suggest.

BS. I've already explained it to you. I'm not going to do it again. Believe what you want!
 

[Martin Weidmann]

Because that would be disingenuous at best, as the time stamps called out by the dispatchers are all individual items recorded on a voice activated system and thus can not be verified in a similar manner than during the 5 minute open mike episode.

A repeat of what I posted, from Bowles’ report, above:

By noting the stated times and the duration of messages in the minutes preceding the incident of the open microphone, I have, for practical purposes, fixed the time for the start of the five-minute open mike episode at 12:29:10 p.m. (Channel 1 time)

Bowles determined the time of the start of that open mike period based on (what he says). There is no reason that a similar method could not be applied to a particular point in the time frame of the recordings during the period of the Tippit shooting.

He fixed the time, for practical purposes, at 12:29. That doesn't mean that time was correct. He needed a starting point from where to time the duration of the open mike episode. He could just as easily have used 12:28 or 12:31. What he tried to establish was if the open mike episode could have occurred when the acoustics report claimed it did.

There is no reason that a similar method could not be applied to a particular point in the time frame of the recordings during the period of the Tippit shooting

Oh yes there is a reason. The radio calls were recorded on voice activated devices. When you do not know how long each interval is between each activation you will get nowhere. Had the recording been continuous it would have been a different matter because all you then needed was a starting point. But it wasn't continuous. I have actually heard a part of the dictabelt recording and what the time calls by the dispatchers suggested was a one hour period only lasted (if I remember correctly) 48 minutes on the dictabelt

No it isn't. It's very simple actually. Bowles explained in great deal how the system of clocks and time calls related to eachother and why none of it is reliable.

Yeah, like I indicated, not reliable enough to tie something down to a tenth of a second. The report is very long and detailed with one aspect depending on the correct understandings of other aspects. And you only accept the parts that you want to. There is no point in trying to discuss this. The report speaks for itself.

No, not reliable to tie it down to a particular minute. Who says I only accept the parts of the report I want to? That's total BS. You can do a song and dance routine as much as you like, but you will never be able to deny that Bowles said;

"Telephone operators and radio operators were furnished "Simplex" clocks. Because the hands often worked loose, they indicated the incorrect time."

and

"Radio operators were also furnished with 12-hour digital clocks to facilitate their time references when they were not using call sheets containing stamped time. These digital clocks were not synchronized with any time standard. Therefore, the time "actual" and time "broadcast" could easily be a minute or so apart."

These two factual comments are enough to conclude that the times provided by the dispatchers can not be relied upon.

Scoggins time does not need to match the DPD time. Why do you insist that it must? If the DPD time is off a minute or two, and the cab company’s time is off a minute or two, and the dispatcher delayed his recording of the call to notify the police; then there is no conflict between them. So the conflict between Bowley’s watch and the other two times is what is in dispute. You can believe what you want. I really don’t care. But there is no way that I will believe that both the DPD and the cab company’s time are off by 6 or 7 minutes.

Scoggins time does not need to match the DPD time. Why do you insist that it must?

For crying out loud, when you claim that DPD times and the time Scoggins gave are correct, they have to be in sinc with eachother, don't you think? There is only one sequence of events that is and can be the right one.....

If the DPD time is off a minute or two, and the cab company’s time is off a minute or two, and the dispatcher delayed his recording of the call to notify the police; then there is no conflict between them.

Aha, I see... between the two of them they can be off by a couple of minutes, but they can't be off against all the other time related evidence that is out there? Got it... that's some special pleading!

So the conflict between Bowley’s watch and the other two times is what is in dispute.

Sure.. and the time(s) Markham's bus left Jefferson, and the time recorded on the authorisation for autopsy which says Dr Ligouri declared Tippit DOA at 1.15, and the time Detective Davenport registered for the DOA and the time that NBC news reported Tippit's DOA (before it actually could have happened in Scoggins' alternative time line).

But there is no way that I will believe that both the DPD and the cab company’s time are off by 6 or 7 minutes.

No worries. There is also no way that I will believe that you are willing to look at the evidence honestly and are only interested in the truth (as you claim) ....  I suppose living in cuckoo land will eventually drive you cuckoo...But it is good of you to expose your bias.

[Charles Collins]

He fixed the time, for practical purposes, at 12:29. That doesn't mean that time was correct. He needed a starting point from where to time the duration of the open mike episode. He could just as easily have used 12:28 or 12:31. What he tried to establish was if the open mike episode could have occurred when the acoustics report claimed it did.

There is no reason that a similar method could not be applied to a particular point in the time frame of the recordings during the period of the Tippit shooting

Oh yes there is a reason. The radio calls were recorded on voice activated devices. When you do not know how long each interval is between each activation you will get nowhere. Had the recording been continuous it would have been a different matter because all you then needed was a starting point. But it wasn't continuous. I have actually heard a part of the dictabelt recording and what the time calls by the dispatchers suggested was a one hour period only lasted (if I remember correctly) 48 minutes on the dictabelt

No, not reliable to tie it down to a particular minute. Who says I only accept the parts of the report I want to? That's total BS. You can do a song and dance routine as much as you like, but you will never be able to deny that Bowles said;

"Telephone operators and radio operators were furnished "Simplex" clocks. Because the hands often worked loose, they indicated the incorrect time."

and

"Radio operators were also furnished with 12-hour digital clocks to facilitate their time references when they were not using call sheets containing stamped time. These digital clocks were not synchronized with any time standard. Therefore, the time "actual" and time "broadcast" could easily be a minute or so apart."

These two factual comments are enough to conclude that the times provided by the dispatchers can not be relied upon.

Scoggins time does not need to match the DPD time. Why do you insist that it must?

For crying out loud, when you claim that DPD times and the time Scoggins gave are correct, they have to be in sinc with eachother, don't you think? There is only one sequence of events that is and can be the right one.....

If the DPD time is off a minute or two, and the cab company’s time is off a minute or two, and the dispatcher delayed his recording of the call to notify the police; then there is no conflict between them.

Aha, I see... between the two of them they can be off by a couple of minutes, but they can't be off against all the other time related evidence that is out there? Got it... that's some special pleading!

So the conflict between Bowley’s watch and the other two times is what is in dispute.

Sure.. and the time(s) Markham's bus left Jefferson, and the time recorded on the authorisation for autopsy which says Dr Ligouri declared Tippit DOA at 1.15, and the time Detective Davenport registered for the DOA and the time that NBC news reported Tippit's DOA (before it actually could have happened in Scoggins' alternative time line).

But there is no way that I will believe that both the DPD and the cab company’s time are off by 6 or 7 minutes.

No worries. The is also no way that I will believe that you are willing to look at the evidence honestly and are only interested in the truth....  I suppose living in cuckoo land will eventually drive you cuckoo...

He could just as easily have used 12:28 or 12:31.

I suggest that you might want to read the following:

Time statements broadcast later confirm this as a rational assumption. (See PART II, CHAPTER FIVE for technical details demonstrating this confirmation.)

He could not have just as easily used 12:28 or 12:31. The time he used appears to be derived as a close approximation of a time that is based on the first shot occurring at approximately 12:30:55 (not some arbitrary time, and the general consensus is that 12:30 Central Standard Time is the approximate time of the shooting). I have taken another look at the method he describes and it appears to me that his derived time synchronizes to within about 40-seconds or so of the announced time at 12:28 (before the mike stuck open) on channel 1.


Had the recording been continuous it would have been a different matter because all you then needed was a starting point.

What you need to keep in mind is that the 5-minute stuck-open mike was just another sound activated recording. The main difference is that it lasted way longer than the typical one. The starting point time for that recording was derived from the recorded times of other activities. Bowles describes his method in detail. My contention is that a similar derived time can be approximated for the Tippit shooting using a similar method.


For crying out loud, when you claim that DPD times and the time Scoggins gave are correct, they have to be in sinc with eachother, don't you think?

Did I claim that either one or both were 100% accurate. I don’t believe that I ever did that. What I suggested is that both of the entities involved had good reason to keep their times reasonably close to the standard time. A minute or two off is about as far off as they should ever be. And most of the time they should be closer than that.

[Martin Weidmann]

He could just as easily have used 12:28 or 12:31.

I suggest that you might want to read the following:

Time statements broadcast later confirm this as a rational assumption. (See PART II, CHAPTER FIVE for technical details demonstrating this confirmation.)

He could not have just as easily used 12:28 or 12:31. The time he used appears to be derived as a close approximation of a time that is based on the first shot occurring at approximately 12:30:55 (not some arbitrary time, and the general consensus is that 12:30 Central Standard Time is the approximate time of the shooting). I have taken another look at the method he describes and it appears to me that his derived time synchronizes to within about 40-seconds or so of the announced time at 12:28 (before the mike stuck open) on channel 1.

So, his starting time estimate of 1.29 was a rational assumption. So what? He needed a starting point and he found one. That's it.

Had the recording been continuous it would have been a different matter because all you then needed was a starting point.

What you need to keep in mind is that the 5-minute stuck-open mike was just another sound activated recording. The main difference is that it lasted way longer than the typical one. The starting point time for that recording was derived from the recorded times of other activities. Bowles describes his method in detail. My contention is that a similar derived time can be approximated for the Tippit shooting using a similar method.

Yes, I do know that the 5 minute open mike recording was a sound activated recording, which subsequently continued for 5 minutes. So what?

You could only have done that for the Tippit shooting if the recording during that period was continuous, which it wasn't. If there had been a continuous recording, we probably wouldn't be having this conversation.

For crying out loud, when you claim that DPD times and the time Scoggins gave are correct, they have to be in sinc with eachother, don't you think?

Did I claim that either one or both were 100% accurate. I don’t believe that I ever did that. What I suggested is that both of the entities involved had good reason to keep their times reasonably close to the standard time. A minute or two off is about as far off as they should ever be. And most of the time they should be closer than that.

You don't have to claim that either was 100% accurate. There was only one sequence of events. The things that happened did happen in a specific order and at a particular time. So, if you want to argue that the DPD recordings and the time provided by Scoggins both are to be believed (which is what you did) they should at least not be at odds with eachother. But they are! That's my point. You can not have a DPD call to the ambulance service at 1.18 on the transcripts (which means the ambulance was there at 1.19 at the latest) and have Scoggins say that he was calling his dispatcher when the ambulance arrived at 1.23. I don't understand why I need to explain something as basic as this to you, again and again...