The Bus Stop Farce

[Walt Cakebread]

You suggest a risky charade to frame Oswald involving the shirt fibers that requires a random citizen witness to lie and others to facilitate that lie.

First of all, there was nothing risky about it, as Oswald was already dead and there wasn't going to be a trial. Secondly, there was no need for a random citizen to lie. Bledsoe's testimony, if you read it careful, never makes the link between the shirt and Oswald wearing it on the bus. It's the power of suggestion at work. Bledsoe did not mention the shirt in her affidavit at all and in her testimony she recognized the shirt from the time they brought it out to her house and classified it as the shirt he was wearing "before he was shot". 

But then you dispute that the fibers link Oswald to the crime citing the findings of the very same folks who you claim facilitated this frame up. 

I have disputed that fibers can be linked to a particular shirt. Stombaugh agrees, as would any other fiber expert.

Can you understand the logical disconnect in your line of "reasoning"?

There is no logical disconnect. I don't cite "the very same folks who facilitated the frame up", but instead cite the opinion of a fiber expert who may not have been part of the frame up at all. You seem to believe, rather foolishly, that everybody who made a statement in this case must have been knowingly part of the cover up, when in fact there is no need for that at all. Stombaugh, for instance, could very well have received the shirt with a hole in the sleeve and the rifle with fibers on it and just conducted an examination.

If there is a logical disconnect, it is on your side. You are the one who, mistakenly, believes or wants to believe that a cover up of this nature would involve massive numbers of people, when in fact it could all be done by a few people at the right place to manipulate the evidence.

But then you dispute that the fibers link Oswald to the crime citing the findings of the very same folks who you claim facilitated this frame up.


I have disputed that fibers can be linked to a particular shirt. Stombaugh agrees, as would any other fiber expert.

Yes you're correct .... Stombaugh did testify that the fibers could not be traced to any particular shirt....  I believe he was alluding to the fact that the manufacturer of that shirt may have produced dozens of shirts that were just like that shirt.

However J. Edgar Hoover didn't want the ignorant public to know that on 11/23/63.....  He released a tale for us suckers that said the FBI had found a tuft of fibers on the butt of the carcano which was believed to be Lee Oswald's rifle and the murder weapon.   The media reported that the FBI had found a tuft of fibers that matched the shirt that Lee Harvey Oswald was wearing when he was arrested at the Texas Theater.

How were we to know that it was a damned lie. 

[Bill Brown]

And if the starting time is wrong all other times are wrong as well. The information that J.C. Bowles, the man in charge of the DPD dispatchers, provided to the HSCA shows unequivocally that the times on the radio transcripts can not be relied upon as being the actual times.

But, the problem for you is that you are using Bowles' words to suggest that it is possible that the clocks were off by as much as six or seven minutes, while Bowles tells you they may be off by two minutes maximum at any given time.

[Bill Brown]

"Therefore, it was not uncommon for the time stamped on calls to be a minute to two ahead or behind the "official" time shown on the master clock."

A clock that provides a time stamp that can be off by two minutes ahead or behind the "official" times is basically off by four minutes.

No.

The clocks may be off by as much as two minutes one way or the other.

[Martin Weidmann]

I can take Bowles’ words out of context also.

You have been doing so all the time. No need to convince me of that.

From Bowles’ report:

By noting the stated times and the duration of messages in the minutes preceding the incident of the open microphone, I have, for practical purposes, fixed the time for the start of the five-minute open mike episode at 12:29:10 p.m. (Channel 1 time). Time statements broadcast later confirm this as a rational assumption. (See PART II, CHAPTER FIVE for technical details demonstrating this confirmation.) Since it is important to have a zero-base from which one might project future time points, a decision was necessary. In using the start of the five-minute interval, and 12:29:10 (Channel 1) as the zero-base, with subsequent time factored thereon, "time" would at least be constant if not absolutely accurate. If not absolutely accurate, time statements cannot be more than a second or two off. The reader is encouraged to reach an independent decision based on the transcriptions of the radio transmissions contained in the Appendix

But I don’t claim that that sentence means all of the time statements, on both channels, all day long. It is way too complicated to argue this stuff on this forum. What you seem to fail to comprehend is that Bowles’ report is in rebuttal to the acoustics report. Here is an example of the type of stuff that he is trying to explain cannot be done using the recordings:

You compare apples and oranges. The comment you have quoted relates to the so-called open mike episode, where an open mike caused the recording device to record without interruption for some 5 minutes. Obviously, any time statements during that period can not be more than a second or two off, because the continuous recording makes it possible to check the exact times during that period.

But I don’t claim that that sentence means all of the time statements, on both channels, all day long.

Because that would be disingenuous at best, as the time stamps called out by the dispatchers are all individual items recorded on a voice activated system and thus can not be verified in a similar manner than during the 5 minute open mike episode.

It is way too complicated to argue this stuff on this forum.

No it isn't. It's very simple actually. Bowles explained in great detail how the system of clocks and time calls related to eachother and why none of it is reliable.

What you seem to fail to comprehend is that Bowles’ report is in rebuttal to the acoustics report.

I've understood that from day one, which is why it is so interesting that in his effort to discredit the acoustics report he actually gave away the game regarding the reliability of the time calls made by the dispatchers. I don't believe that was his intention, but there it was anyway.

A considerable number of references to exact times, even to tenths of seconds, exist in the Committee's Report....

No where does Bowles indicate that the time could be 6 or 7 minutes off, period. And that is what one would have to assume if one believes that Bowley’s watch was accurate and he arrived on the scene at 1:10. So you are the one grossly misrepresenting what Bowles’ report says.

I can not make a misrepresentation of something by not saying that particular something. I have never claimed that Bowles has indicated that the time could be 6 or 7 minutes off. I have merely stated that the times given on the transcripts can not be relied upon simply because Bowles has confirmed and explained in great detail that the system of clocks can not be relied upon to give the actual time. I also have never claimed that Bowley's watch was 100% accurate.

And as for the cab company; Whaley testified he marked his trips to the nearest 15 minutes

There is a difference in expectations for the times on the individual time sheets kept by the cab drivers and the ones kept by the dispatchers. In the late seventies I ran a radio dispatched service truck and kept track of the times I spent on each call for billing purposes. These were also rounded off to the nearest quarter-hour. The times recorded by the dispatcher didn’t need to match exactly but were kept as a record of when the call was received, dispatched, and completed. Travel times varied but were accounted for in this way. You are trying to compare apples to oranges (so to speak).

Nope... Double hearsay is double hearsay. The dispatcher never produced his sheet and the time he allegedly gave Scoggins does not even match the times on the DPD transcripts.

For example; according to the DPD transcripts the ambulance was called at 1.18. As the funeral home from where it came was only a block away, on Jefferson, the ambulance arrived straight away, probably in less than a minute. Yet, Scoggings claimed that he called his dispatcher when the ambulance got there and allegedly according to his dispatcher that was at 1.23. It doesn't add up. In one of my previous posts I have already destroyed your entire Scoggins story, so I am done repeating it to you again. You can go back and read it or not. Either way I don't care, your Scoggins story is a fairytale.

[Martin Weidmann]

But, the problem for you is that you are using Bowles' words to suggest that it is possible that the clocks were off by as much as six or seven minutes, while Bowles tells you they may be off by two minutes maximum at any given time.

Bowles said that "it was not uncommon for the time stamped on calls to be a minute to two ahead or behind the "official" time shown on the master clock." He did not say that the clocks themselves "may be off by two minutes maximum".

He did say "A master clock on the telephone room wall was connected to the City Hall system. This clock reported "official" time." but did not mention that "official time" was the same as real time!

He also said; "Telephone operators and radio operators were furnished "Simplex" clocks. Because the hands often worked loose, they indicated the incorrect time." and when the clocks show the incorrect time, the time calls on the DPD recordings and transcripts derived from them are also incorrect.

And he said; "Radio operators were also furnished with 12-hour digital clocks to facilitate their time references when they were not using call sheets containing stamped time. These digital clocks were not synchronized with any time standard. Therefore, the time "actual" and time "broadcast" could easily be a minute or so apart."

Dispatchers worked with clocks that were either known to be incorrect and/or were not synchronized with any time standard. There was no guarantee that any of those clocks matched the time on the master clock, nor was there any certainty that the time on the master clock was in fact the same as real time. And then, on top of it all, the dispatcher could give out a time on the radio that did not correspond with the time on the clock he was using.

I am not even sure where you are getting the 6 or 7 minutes from. According to the transcripts Bowley called the dispatcher somewhere after the 1.16 time call. Bowley said he arrived at the scene at 1.10 (according to his watch) so I would argue that it's possible he actually made the call to the dispatcher at around 1.11. That makes the difference only some 5 minutes. And if Bowley's watch was one minute slow, the difference would only be 4 minutes.

[Bill Brown]

Bowles said that "it was not uncommon for the time stamped on calls to be a minute to two ahead or behind the "official" time shown on the master clock." He did not say that the clocks themselves "may be off by two minutes maximum".

He did say "A master clock on the telephone room wall was connected to the City Hall system. This clock reported "official" time." but did not mention that "official time" was the same as real time!

He also said; "Telephone operators and radio operators were furnished "Simplex" clocks. Because the hands often worked loose, they indicated the incorrect time." and when the clocks show the incorrect time, the time calls on the DPD recordings and transcripts derived from them are also incorrect.

And he said; "Radio operators were also furnished with 12-hour digital clocks to facilitate their time references when they were not using call sheets containing stamped time. These digital clocks were not synchronized with any time standard. Therefore, the time "actual" and time "broadcast" could easily be a minute or so apart."

Dispatchers worked with clocks that were either known to be incorrect and/or were not synchronized with any time standard. There was no guarantee that any of those clocks matched the time on the master clock, nor was there any certainty that the time on the master clock was in fact the same as real time. And then, on top of it all, the dispatcher could give out a time on the radio that did not correspond with the time on the clock he was using.

I am not even sure where you are getting the 6 or 7 minutes from. According to the transcripts Bowley called the dispatcher somewhere after the 1.16 time call. Bowley said he arrived at the scene at 1.10 (according to his watch) so I would argue that it's possible he actually made the call to the dispatcher at around 1.11. That makes the difference only some 5 minutes. And if Bowley's watch was one minute slow, the difference would only be 4 minutes.

Bowley made the report on the police radio at 1:17.

Nothing in Bowles' statements suggest that the clocks were off by as much as six or seven minutes, which is how much they would have to be off if in reality Bowley reported the shooting at 1:11, as you suggest.

[Charles Collins]

You have been doing so all the time. No need to convince me of that.

You compare apples and oranges. The comment you have quoted relates to the so-called open mike episode, where an open mike caused the recording device to record without interruption for some 5 minutes. Obviously, any time statements during that period can not be more than a second or two off, because the continuous recording makes it possible to check the exact times during that period.

But I don’t claim that that sentence means all of the time statements, on both channels, all day long.

Because that would be disingenuous at best, as the time stamps called out by the dispatchers are all individual items recorded on a voice activated system and thus can not be verified in a similar manner than during the 5 minute open mike episode.

It is way too complicated to argue this stuff on this forum.

No it isn't. It's very simple actually. Bowles explained in great deal how the system of clocks and time calls related to eachother and why none of it is reliable.

What you seem to fail to comprehend is that Bowles’ report is in rebuttal to the acoustics report.

I've understood that from day one, which is why it is so interesting that in his effort to discredit the acoustics report he actually gave away the game regarding the reliability of the time calls made by the dispatchers. I don't believe that was his intention, but there it was anyway.

I can not make a misrepresentation of something by not saying that particular something. I have never claimed that Bowles has indicated that the time could be 6 or 7 minutes off. I have merely stated that the times given on the transcripts can not be relied upon simply because Bowles has confirmed and explained in great detail that the system of clocks can not be relied upon to give the actual time. I also have never claimed that Bowley's watch was 100% accurate.

Nope... Double hearsay is double hearsay. The dispatcher never produced his sheet and the time he allegedly gave Scoggins does not even match the times on the DPD transcripts.

For example; according to the DPD transcripts the ambulance was called at 1.18. As the funeral home from where it came was only a block away, on Jefferson, the ambulance arrived straight away, probably in less than a minute. Yet, Scoggings claimed that he called his dispatcher when the ambulance got there and allegedly according to his dispatcher that was at 1.23. It doesn't add up. In one of my previous posts I have already destroyed your entire Scoggins story, so I am done repeating it to you again. You can go back and read it or not. Either way I don't care, your Scoggins story is a fairytale.

Because that would be disingenuous at best, as the time stamps called out by the dispatchers are all individual items recorded on a voice activated system and thus can not be verified in a similar manner than during the 5 minute open mike episode.

A repeat of what I posted, from Bowles’ report, above:

By noting the stated times and the duration of messages in the minutes preceding the incident of the open microphone, I have, for practical purposes, fixed the time for the start of the five-minute open mike episode at 12:29:10 p.m. (Channel 1 time)

Bowles determined the time of the start of that open mike period based on (what he says). There is no reason that a similar method could not be applied to a particular point in the time frame of the recordings during the period of the Tippit shooting.


No it isn't. It's very simple actually. Bowles explained in great deal how the system of clocks and time calls related to eachother and why none of it is reliable.

Yeah, like I indicated, not reliable enough to tie something down to a tenth of a second. The report is very long and detailed with one aspect depending on the correct understandings of other aspects. And you only accept the parts that you want to. There is no point in trying to discuss this. The report speaks for itself.


Scoggins time does not need to match the DPD time. Why do you insist that it must? If the DPD time is off a minute or two, and the cab company’s time is off a minute or two, and the dispatcher delayed his recording of the call to notify the police; then there is no conflict between them. So the conflict between Bowley’s watch and the other two times is what is in dispute. You can believe what you want. I really don’t care. But there is no way that I will believe that both the DPD and the cab company’s time are off by 6 or 7 minutes.

[Martin Weidmann]

Bowley made the report on the police radio at 1:17.

Nothing in Bowles' statements suggest that the clocks were off by as much as six or seven minutes, which is how much they would have to be off if in reality Bowley reported the shooting at 1:11, as you suggest.

Bowley made the report on the police radio at 1:17.

Says who? The DPD transcripts I have seen do not mention a 1.17 time call.

But let's assume that you are correct and let's also assume that the time stamps called by the dispatchers were spot on. This would mean that he arrived on the scene at around 1.15 or 1.16. If that's true, what in the world was Markham still doing there? Wasn't she supposed to have been on her regular bus, or at least at the bus stop on Jefferson by 1.15?

Nothing in Bowles' statements suggest that the clocks were off by as much as six or seven minutes, which is how much they would have to be off if in reality Bowley reported the shooting at 1:11, as you suggest.

BS. I've already explained it to you. I'm not going to do it again. Believe what you want!