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Author Topic: On The Trail Of Delusion  (Read 61823 times)

Online Jerry Organ

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Re: "Coup in Dallas" - The Story of a Factoid
« Reply #920 on: February 01, 2022, 09:36:29 PM »
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Tim Weiner is the same guy who, in spite of the overwhelming evidence, denies that the CIA played a role in international drug trafficking.

https://www.nytimes.com/1997/12/19/us/cia-says-it-has-found-no-link-between-itself-and-crack-trade.html

Also, his claim about Jim Garrison and Oliver Stone falling for Russian propaganda has been easily debunked.

DiEugenio's response to Weiner's hit piece:

"This phony prelude leads to Weiner’s main theme. It’s not an easy job to soften and make acceptable the life and career of CIA Director Allen Dulles. One would think that, after all we know about Dulles today, no one would try, but Weiner has to, in order to sketch in his other false alternative. Namely that Stone says that Dulles was the “presiding genius of the plot against the president.” (The film doesn’t really say that, but accuracy is not what Weiner is after.)

So now Tim pulls out his make-up kit for Dulles. He writes that the CIA Director did not back the plots to overthrow Charles de Gaulle of France, which is a startling statement. For many interested observers, one of the best books on the career of Allen Dulles is The Devil’s Chessboard. Author David Talbot uses a variety of sources to show that Weiner is wrong. For example, the newspaper Paris-Jour centered on Dulles as the main culprit in the attempted overthrow of April 1961. Later, bestselling French author Vincent Jauvert traced the sources of these stories in the French press to de Gaulle’s own foreign ministry. (Talbot, p. 414) In fact, De Gaulle had come to this conclusion himself. (London Observer, May 2, 1961) Author Andrew Tully also noted columns in Le Monde and l’Express which he wrote were owed to high French officials. (CIA: The Inside Story, pp. 48–49)

In the USA, The Nation reported that high level French government employees thought the CIA had encouraged the attempted overthrow. And using l’Express, they wrote that one of the dissident French generals had several meetings with CIA agents who advised him that getting rid of de Gaulle would do the free world a great service. (The Nation, May 20, 1961) These stories also appeared in American mainstream newspapers like The Washington Post. (April 30, 1961) Most fatally for Weiner, his former employer The New York Times also printed the story. Scotty Reston wrote that the CIA was indeed “involved in an embarrassing liaison with the anti-Gaullist officers.” (New York Times, April 29, 1961) But further, Talbot goes into the reasons behind the conflict between Dulles and de Gaulle. It was the desire of the French leader to get rid of NATO’s Operation Gladio elements in France and also his intent to set free the French colony of Algeria in North Africa. (Talbot, pp. 416–17) One would think that all this would be enough to satisfy most objective observers.

In a neat bit of cherry picking, Weiner never mentions any of these sources.
He borrows a trick from Max Holland and says that the idea that the CIA backed the attempts by dissident French officers to overthrow de Gaulle was all part of a Russian disinformation campaign that began in Italy. To most informed observers the idea that Scotty Reston would rely on the Italian newspaper Paese Sera is ridiculous on its face...


https://www.kennedysandking.com/john-f-kennedy-articles/why-tim-weiner-never-called-me

I see where Paese Sera is briefly mentioned at the end, but where does DiEugenio debunk Weiner's article?

You only have to go to Wikipedia to see that Tarbot is as big a conspiracy fruitcake as DiEugenio and most of his apologists at JFK Ed-Forum.

    "Talbot's book The Devil's Chessboard: Allen Dulles, the CIA, and the Rise of
     America's Secret Government
is a biography examining the career of Allen Dulles.
     According to Talbot, Dulles orchestrated the assassination of Kennedy at the
     behest of corporate leaders who perceived the President to be a threat to national
     security, lobbied Lyndon B. Johnson to have himself appointed to the Warren
     Commission, then arranged to have Lee Harvey Oswald take sole responsibility
     for the act. The book charges that the conspirators in JFK's death also murdered
     Bobby Kennedy as they perceived him to be "a wild card, an uncontrollable threat"
     that would reveal the plot.

     The book has stirred debate about the history of the CIA. In a review for the
     San Francisco Chronicle, Glenn C. Altschuler stated, "Talbot’s indictment is long,
     varied and sensational." Altschuler wrote: "Animated by conspiracy theories, the
     speculations and accusations in his book often run far ahead of the evidence, even
     for those of us inclined to believe the worst about Allen Dulles."

David Talbot spouted his lies and misinformation on-screen in "JFK Revisited". Fred Litwin sorts out his Talbot's false claims.
  • "JFK Revisited" Misleads on Supposed CIA Support of the 1961 Coup Attempt in France ( Link )
  • "JFK Revisited" Misleads by Putting Words in Kennedy's Mouth... ( Link )
  • "JFK Revisited" Misleads by Putting Words in Kennedy's Mouth, Part Two ( Link )

JFK Assassination Forum

Re: "Coup in Dallas" - The Story of a Factoid
« Reply #920 on: February 01, 2022, 09:36:29 PM »


Offline Jon Banks

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Re: "Coup in Dallas" - The Story of a Factoid
« Reply #921 on: February 01, 2022, 09:50:53 PM »
I see where Paese Sera is briefly mentioned at the end, but where does DiEugenio debunk Weiner's article?

You only have to go to Wikipedia to see that Tarbot is as big a conspiracy fruitcake as DiEugenio and most of his apologists at JFK Ed-Forum.

    "Talbot's book The Devil's Chessboard: Allen Dulles, the CIA, and the Rise of
     America's Secret Government
is a biography examining the career of Allen Dulles.
     According to Talbot, Dulles orchestrated the assassination of Kennedy at the
     behest of corporate leaders who perceived the President to be a threat to national
     security, lobbied Lyndon B. Johnson to have himself appointed to the Warren
     Commission, then arranged to have Lee Harvey Oswald take sole responsibility
     for the act. The book charges that the conspirators in JFK's death also murdered
     Bobby Kennedy as they perceived him to be "a wild card, an uncontrollable threat"
     that would reveal the plot.

     The book has stirred debate about the history of the CIA. In a review for the
     San Francisco Chronicle, Glenn C. Altschuler stated, "Talbot’s indictment is long,
     varied and sensational." Altschuler wrote: "Animated by conspiracy theories, the
     speculations and accusations in his book often run far ahead of the evidence, even
     for those of us inclined to believe the worst about Allen Dulles."

David Talbot spouted his lies and misinformation on-screen in "JFK Revisited". Fred Litwin sorts out his Talbot's false claims.
  • "JFK Revisited" Misleads on Supposed CIA Support of the 1961 Coup Attempt in France ( Link )
  • "JFK Revisited" Misleads by Putting Words in Kennedy's Mouth... ( Link )
  • "JFK Revisited" Misleads by Putting Words in Kennedy's Mouth, Part Two ( Link )

I'm open to the probability that Dulles had nothing to do with with the French coup attempt. The details are too murky to know what the truth is.

However, Weiner is wrong to imply that the Soviets were the source of the suspicions of CIA involvement and DiEugenio is correct that it originated from multiple sources, including the French security services.

On David Talbot, his book on Dulles is a very informative biography. I recommend it. The speculation about Dulles' role in the French coup attempt and the Kennedy assassination comes towards the end of the book and Talbot makes it clear that he was speculating about what role Dulles may have played in those events.

If you don't trust Talbot, Stephen Kinzer wrote a great book about the Dulles brothers too ('Brothers').

No one knows the absolute truth about any historic event. Often times, historians must speculate to fill in gaps. Which apparently, you think is a bad thing even though it's a common academic practice...

« Last Edit: February 01, 2022, 09:52:25 PM by Jon Banks »

Offline Fred Litwin

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Re: On The Trail Of Delusion
« Reply #922 on: February 02, 2022, 02:29:32 PM »
Talbot's book is really horrible.

More debunking of Talbot to come.

fred

JFK Assassination Forum

Re: On The Trail Of Delusion
« Reply #922 on: February 02, 2022, 02:29:32 PM »


Offline Fred Litwin

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Fred Litwin on Conspiracy Clearinghouse
« Reply #923 on: February 02, 2022, 02:30:03 PM »
Fred Litwin on Conspiracy Clearinghouse
A podcast that tries to debunk conspiracies. It was a pleasure to appear on the podcast.

https://www.onthetrailofdelusion.com/post/fred-litwin-on-conspiracy-clearinghouse

Offline Jon Banks

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Re: On The Trail Of Delusion
« Reply #924 on: February 03, 2022, 03:21:01 AM »
Talbot's book is really horrible.

More debunking of Talbot to come.

fred

The Devils Chessboard by Talbot and The Ghost by Jeff Morley are two great books for learning the history and nature of the CIA.

I highly recommend both.

JFK Assassination Forum

Re: On The Trail Of Delusion
« Reply #924 on: February 03, 2022, 03:21:01 AM »


Offline Fred Litwin

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Re: On The Trail Of Delusion
« Reply #925 on: February 03, 2022, 02:49:38 PM »
"Guilt by Orientation" - The CIA Strikes Again

Jamie Kirchick's excellent article, "Guilt by Orientation," on Oliver Stone's three-decade long slander of Clay Shaw, has made some people go batty.

https://www.onthetrailofdelusion.com/post/guilt-by-orientation-the-cia-strikes-again

Offline Fred Litwin

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Re: On The Trail Of Delusion
« Reply #926 on: February 04, 2022, 02:15:25 PM »
"Guilt by Orientation" -- the CIA Strikes Again, Part Two
More ridiculous tweets about Jamie KIrchick's excellent article, "Guilt by Orientation."

https://www.onthetrailofdelusion.com/post/guilt-by-orientation-the-cia-strikes-again-part-two

JFK Assassination Forum

Re: On The Trail Of Delusion
« Reply #926 on: February 04, 2022, 02:15:25 PM »


Offline Jon Banks

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Re: On The Trail Of Delusion
« Reply #927 on: February 04, 2022, 02:21:15 PM »
Kirchick won’t debate DiEugenio. What is he afraid of?