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Author Topic: The First Shot  (Read 587659 times)

Offline Tim Nickerson

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Re: The First Shot
« Reply #1953 on: Today at 02:44:09 AM »
Do you think a smear could have caused Tague's facial injury?

A fragment that ricocheted off the curb could have caused Tague's "facial injury".

Online John Corbett

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Re: The First Shot
« Reply #1954 on: Today at 03:43:22 AM »
A fragment that ricocheted off the curb could have caused Tague's "facial injury".

The question is how did the fragment end up striking the curb. There are possibilities but no definite answer. I suspect this will remain an unsolved mystery, one of the few involving the JFKA.
« Last Edit: Today at 12:24:47 PM by John Corbett »

Offline Tim Nickerson

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Re: The First Shot
« Reply #1955 on: Today at 04:04:37 AM »
The question is how did the fragment end up striking the curb. There are possibilities but no definite answer. I suspect this will remain and unsolved mystery, one of the few involving the JFKA.

It would have exited over the top of the windshield and gone on to hit the curb. The two large fragments found in the limo had gone upward upon exiting Kennedy's head. And they went there separate ways laterally. The one that hit the chrome piece was not far off from exiting. If it was a fragment that struck Tague , it would have had to go between 5 and 10 degrees to the left in order to hit Tague. I can't remember the figure and I can't check it out now because I've just been updated to the most recent version of GIMP and I have don't feel like trying to figure out how to use the measuring tool tonight. I'll delete this version tomorrow and download a much older one.

On edit: I just used the measuring tool in the latest version of GIMP. The fragment would have had to "deflect" 6 degrees to the left in order to hit the curb near where Tague was standing
« Last Edit: Today at 04:35:16 AM by Tim Nickerson »

Online John Corbett

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Re: The First Shot
« Reply #1956 on: Today at 12:34:29 PM »
It would have exited over the top of the windshield and gone on to hit the curb. The two large fragments found in the limo had gone upward upon exiting Kennedy's head. And they went there separate ways laterally. The one that hit the chrome piece was not far off from exiting. If it was a fragment that struck Tague , it would have had to go between 5 and 10 degrees to the left in order to hit Tague. I can't remember the figure and I can't check it out now because I've just been updated to the most recent version of GIMP and I have don't feel like trying to figure out how to use the measuring tool tonight. I'll delete this version tomorrow and download a much older one.

On edit: I just used the measuring tool in the latest version of GIMP. The fragment would have had to "deflect" 6 degrees to the left in order to hit the curb near where Tague was standing

While that is a possibility, it requires that a fragment exited JFK's head with a low enough velocity to pass over the windshield and arc back down to where it struck the curb in front of Tague but still have enough velocity to cause the debris to injure Tague. I don't know if there is a velocity that would satisfy both those requirements. I tend to lean towards the theory that the first missed shot fragmented and one of the fragments ricocheted down range to strike the curb. Using Google Earth, a line drawn from the sniper's nest to Tague's location would passes just to the right of where the limo was on Elm St. I believe that the first shot struck the pavement to the right of the limo. Posner hypothesized the bullet hit a tree branch and others believe it hit the traffic arm that the limo passed under. We will never know for sure what the cause of Tague's injury was, only that it was likely a lead fragment from one of Oswald's shots.
« Last Edit: Today at 12:36:33 PM by John Corbett »

Online Tom Graves

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Re: The First Shot
« Reply #1957 on: Today at 02:51:23 PM »
While that is a possibility, it requires that a fragment exited JFK's head with a low enough velocity to pass over the windshield and arc back down to where it struck the curb in front of Tague but still have enough velocity to cause the debris to injure Tague. I don't know if there is a velocity that would satisfy both those requirements. I tend to lean towards the theory that the first missed shot fragmented and one of the fragments ricocheted down range to strike the curb. Using Google Earth, a line drawn from the sniper's nest to Tague's location would passes just to the right of where the limo was on Elm St. I believe that the first shot struck the pavement to the right of the limo. Posner hypothesized the bullet hit a tree branch and others believe it hit the traffic arm that the limo passed under. We will never know for sure what the cause of Tague's injury was, only that it was likely a lead fragment from one of Oswald's shots.

"Herb Huskr" posted this on 22 August 2024 at the JFK Truth Be Told FB page:


There is some active discussion on another forum where I’m not a member about James Tague being hit, a curb mark, and what happened there. This post is about some modeling and simulation results made awhile back evaluating a possibility to explain that Tague incident.

I’ve not routinely discussed these details before because there is a back story that suggests that the modeling indicated how wrong I may have been with my initial gut feeling, and who wants to embarrass themselves by admitting they may have been misled by an erroneous gut-feeling bias?

The modeling was done a few of years back to try and prove this initial assumption:

A missing fragment from the z313 head shot could not have made it to Tague and created a shallow curb divot sending mortar/sand shards up and out, with some striking Tague in the cheek while he was standing nearby.

The envisioned scenario (initial gut feeling scenario) looked something like the following:

A disfigured lead, or lead with residual copper, bullet fragment flying forward escaped the limo from the third shot, at maybe 400 ft/sec, continued on to strike the curb with a compressive strike from a mostly horizontal trajectory, hitting at a reduced velocity around 200 ft/sec or so. This possibility was expected to be proven untenable and therefore likely wouldn’t happen.

Results:

Embarrassingly enough, the modeling predicted I would be wrong on every single account!

A fragment could have made it to Tague

The initial exit velocity would be more than twice the 400 ft/sec I was thinking

The final velocity would be even less than half the 200 ft/sec I was thinking

The angle at striking would be opposite, nearly vertical, instead of more horizontal like I thought

The curb strike likely presented a shearing force rather than the head-on compression force I expected

Talk about being wrong!

A crude curb-strike simulation was subsequently conducted to look at this because the predictions seemed so unusual.

Overall, the modeling and simulation indicated the scenario looked to be a real possibility, with a limo-exiting fragment able to reach the curb by Tague and cause a spray of surface mortar that could hit him.

It is still possible the model is not accurate enough, or the fresh mark was not related to a bullet at all, but the modeling came up with numbers that were largely predictive of observations that others subsequently measured on such fragments, like what Lucian Haag found for fragment exit velocities in his simulated skull test shots experiments, and Carcano fragment ballistic coefficients.

Two options for base case trajectories for the incident are depicted on the attached graphs. [I couldn't copy-paste them here. -- T.G.]

Based on the modeling and simulation, I now favor that a rogue fragment from the head shot caused the Tague incident.

I will try to make a link to a summary with more details for those interested in ballistics, etc.

The study details can be found here:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1CcnCy17Hwqqw3zBCK7ls8peA3DxmVzhk/view?fbclid=IwY2xjawUJ9RtwZG9mAWV4dG4DYWVtAjEwAGJyaWQRMU9pYldIMmFVN1lEcWFHcVBzcnRjBmFwcF9pZBAyMjIwMzkxNzg4MjAwODkyAAEeAGcK-_z2CwDFyqPwaxNjySIe4271E_ylArwt4h0qfEuhMoRgvrWhDkoyXt4_aem_vfS9yrI0_vZnHC-27-PyIw