The First Shot

[Andrew Mason]

By adding the three secretaries to the line by the sign and moving the other four secretaries by Templin. What happens to the rest of the women from Woodward to the four secretaries? There are now to many people listed for the number of people standing on the curb. Specifically, Woodward, Brown, Donaldson, Thornton, Berry. There are two or three more secretaries than people on the curb.

Jane Berry, Betty Thornton claim to have been directly in front of the TSBD so I am not sure why they are thought to be to the right of AJ "hardhat" Millican.  June Dishong and Peggy Burney did not give statements at the time but Dishong has been identified as the fourth person left of the Stemmons sign in the Zfilm wearing a red and blue plaid shirt. There is nothing I have seen to indicate that she was with Burney.

If you eliminate Berry and Thornton, then the people to the right of Millican are: unknown woman (possibly Burney?), The Woodard Group (Alonzo, Woodward, Donaldson, Brown - all identified by Woodward in that order), The Westbrook Group (Westbrook, Reed<->Hicks, Calvery) then Templin, Brandt, Newman.

Having said all that, the list of people who claim to have been standing along Elm St. includes Billie Clay's group.  According to Clay's 23Mar64 FBI statement, she was standing on the sidewalk about 150 feet from the TSBD entrance with Mary Lea Williams, Georgia Ruth Hendrix, Mary Sue Dickerson, Mrs. John (Peggy) Hawkins and her son, John, aged 4. Hendrix said the same thing although Dickerson did not mention anyone except Clay and Hawkins said they were on the sidewalk in front of the TSBD.  That group is not identifiable anywhere to the right of Millican.

[John Iacoletti]

"tirade" LOL
Presenting how I reached my conclusions, including the range of evidence and the arguments emanating from that evidence [REPLY#1296 [page 163]], is hardly a tirade.
The reader will notice that, for pages of this thread, the single argument John has brought to this debate is "Westbrook said so". Remember, this is supposed to be some kind of senior researcher in this case and someone who believes he is the self-styled arbiter of factual accuracy. He has not provided a single scrap of evidence to support his identification of the woman in the blue headscarf as being Westbrook and has conducted himself in a deceitful manner throughout the whole debate.

More BS from the master of the BS argument.  I'm not the one who claimed any "certainty" about anybody's identity, you are.  And your sole argument is that their bodies look like the Darnell black-and-white trio to you.  Everything else is just verbosity.

All I said was that "Westbrook said so" beats "Dan O'meara said so".  I'm not so arrogant as to claim that a subjective self-serving opinion is a "certainty" like you are.

I never claimed to be "some kind of senior researcher" or a "self-styled arbiter of factual accuracy".  That's just you whining about your inaccuracies being called out.

[Dan O'meara]

More BS from the master of the BS argument.  I'm not the one who claimed any "certainty" about anybody's identity, you are.  And your sole argument is that their bodies look like the Darnell black-and-white trio to you.  Everything else is just verbosity.

All I said was that "Westbrook said so" beats "Dan O'meara said so".  I'm not so arrogant as to claim that a subjective self-serving opinion is a "certainty" like you are.

I never claimed to be "some kind of senior researcher" or a "self-styled arbiter of factual accuracy".  That's just you whining about your inaccuracies being called out.

And your sole argument is that their bodies look like the Darnell black-and-white trio to you.

Our debate is recorded in the previous pages.
I am more than happy to let the reader assess my contribution to it and the validity of this statement.

[Zeon Mason]

Take a look at the Muchmore film ( similar perspective as Nix film) and explain why the men on the  GK steps are not reacting even after supposedly 2 loud shots have been fired and they were close enough to see JFK and JBC reactions at Z224.

The Newmans ( with small child) who eventually laid on the ground)  haven’t yet reacted. As close as they were , if 2 loud shots have been fired and the 1st one maybe was 3 seconds prior and the 2nd shot has hit JFK and he’s obviously slumping, seems like they would be diving to the ground earlier than waiting 4.8 secs longer until the Z313 shot.

Also of note is that DC man still had his hand raised and doesn’t drop it upon hearing the supposed 2nd shot at Z224 or seeing JFK hands going up to his throat and then slumping over.

There’s also a man near Altgens who does  not dive to the ground until after the Z313 shot.

Oddly Altgens himself doesn’t seem quite aware either even after the Z313 shot, but then he may have become aware at Z313 but chose to continue standing where he was bravely determined to try to take another photo.

Charles Brehm, should have surely been aware 2 rifle shots have been fired and seeing JFK react at Z224 but he doesn’t seem to be aware.

The SS agents are not looking back at TSBD  up till Z 207 and it’s not until about Z255 that SS agent Clint Hill finally seems aware and the other agents have turned their heads back towards the TSBD.

There just is not enough reaction by ANYONE in the groups of people in close vicinity to the JFK limo that really substantiate that a shot was fired prior to Z 224.

Except for the Z170 turn of Jackie’s head and JFKs head being turned sharply towards the right side of the limo, which if that was a loud rifle shot causing that, then why the other people are not apparently reacting in some way?

That Z170-Z207 section of the Z film kind of refutes Andrew Masons theory of a Z195- thru JFK neck shot, because JFKs head was turned so far to the right, that if a shot went thru the neck, then it likely would not have exited the center of trachea but rather to left of center.

Lack of reaction by observers nearby the JFK limo, continues between the gap from Z224-Z313. This indicates  that not only was there probably no loud shot prior to Z224, but that there was probably no 2nd shot that was spaced evenly between Z224 and Z313.

Even the JFK limo driver Greer, is not apparently cognizant that that JFK and JBC have been hit, because slowing down is an act of uncertainty rather than immediate recognition that 2 loud rifle shots have been fired.

[Andrew Mason]

That Z170-Z207 section of the Z film kind of refutes Andrew Masons theory of a Z195- thru JFK neck shot, because JFKs head was turned so far to the right, that if a shot went thru the neck, then it likely would not have exited the center of trachea but rather to left of center.

It did exit just left of centre. The shot passed through the upper back and exited through the trachea at the base of his neck making a hole on the left side of the knot. JFK turns his head right at z172-180 but his shoulders do not turn perceptibly.

[Zeon Mason]

@Andrew Mason

Your “left” of center is not my left of center if you are talking about the front of JFK ( face up autopsy photo)

My left of center was in relation to the back of JFK as the shot enters and I guess from the front it would be exiting RIGHT of center  of the neck ( so my mistake on description).

So the question still remains is JFKs  head was is turned so far to the right side of the limo, at Z195-207, then would not the bullet exit hole in the throat /neck  be  right of center as viewed from the front of JFK ( face up photo)?

Is there any existing photo of the actual exit hole in the throat before the tracheotomy incision obliterated it?

[Andrew Mason]

@Andrew Mason

Your “left” of center is not my left of center if you are talking about the front of JFK ( face up autopsy photo)

My left of center was in relation to the back of JFK as the shot enters and I guess from the front it would be exiting RIGHT of center  of the neck ( so my mistake on description).

So the question still remains is JFKs  head was is turned so far to the right side of the limo, at Z195-207, then would not the bullet exit hole in the throat /neck  be  right of center as viewed from the front of JFK ( face up photo)?

Is there any existing photo of the actual exit hole in the throat before the tracheotomy incision obliterated it?

Right and Left refer to JFK's right and left sides. According to the HSCA, the bullet entered about 45-50 mm right of JFK's spine travelling on a right to left angle.  It exited very close to the midline, just 2.5-5 mm to the left of JFK's centre.  See: the HSCA report and analysis, 6 HSCA 43