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Author Topic: The First Shot  (Read 119627 times)

Online Andrew Mason

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Re: The First Shot
« Reply #920 on: April 04, 2022, 10:03:06 PM »
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Dan, If you are going to wrestle with a pig in the mud, always remember the pig likes it.

 :D
Thanks Jack, for the strangest advice I've ever been given, but well put.

Andrew's theory, as I understand it, is a first shot at z195, a second shot at z271(ish) and a third shot at z312/3.
We both agree the first shot hits JFK but a shot as early as z195 has to be taken through the oak tree, which is a non-starter.
JFK was clear of the tree from the SN when he was between the lamppost and the Thornton Freeway sign. He was opposite the Thornton sign at z200 and opposite the lamppost at z190.  You just need to use the Secret Service film:

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It is also notable that none of the Secret Service agents reacts to the very loud, "explosive" sound of the first shot before z207, yet three of them testify that they turned to their right rear immediately after hearing the shot (as seen in Altgens 6).
Ready releases his right hand from the front hand-hold by z199 and begins his turn to the right.  He had to do that to turn to the right rear as he said he did immediately after the first shot.  Was he clairvoyant in anticipating the first shot at z223?

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As for the shot around z271, that has been blown out of the water in a multitude of different ways in this thread.
Yet you do admit that if the last shot was the headshot at z313, there had to have been a second shot around z271.  You just think it missed.  The evidence indicates that it hit JBC.

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Re: The First Shot
« Reply #920 on: April 04, 2022, 10:03:06 PM »


Online Dan O'meara

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Re: The First Shot
« Reply #921 on: April 04, 2022, 10:19:13 PM »
I am not misunderstanding your point, deliberately or otherwise. You are saying that you can tell that JFK's reaction to being shot through the neck BEGINS after z224.  I am simply pointing out that you cannot see JFK before z224 so how do you know that he is not reacting there?  We can see his contorted face in z225 and that his hands have moved from the positions seen in z193 to those seen in z225.  You simply cannot say that the zfilm shows that he was not reacting before z224. You can try to reason, as you have, that what is seen after he emerges is the first reaction but it is not based on evidence. It is based on conjecture that JFK had to react that way within a few frames of being hit. 
BUT YOU CANNOT SEE JFK FROM Z207 TO Z224!!!  You want everyone to believe you can see that he is not reacting before z224!!  I understand your argument.  But it is not based on evidence. It is based on a theory that has no evidentiary support.  As far as JFK's reaction after being hit, I simply point out that the reaction depends on what JFK experienced. If he did not feel any pain or impact but just felt a growing sensation of loss of function, his reaction could have developed over a period of one second or so.  I also point out that you can see the beginning of a reaction with his hand movements before z207.

You most certainly are misunderstanding the point I've been making in my last few posts. My argument has been about the movement of JFK's left arm. Before he passes behind the Stemmons sign his left arm is down by his side and when he emerges from behind the sign his left arm is still down by his side.
This cannot be denied, the Z-film is evidence that this is the case. We don't need to see what's happening behind the sign as his arm is still in the same position.
The Z-film also shows us that within 0.44 seconds later his left arm has rocketed up to the radically extreme position we see in z232. The Z-film is evidence of this that cannot be denied.
The very first upward motion of his left arm can be traced to z225, the Z-film is evidence of this.
Not even you would deny this movement is a response to the throat shot.

What can explain this unbelievably rapid movement to the very extreme posture shown in z232?
The only coherent, rational answer is that this movement and the extreme posture are a result of a reflex reaction to the shot passing through JFK.
The bullet passes through the Brachial Plexus of nerves that supply motor function to the arms. Damage to these nerves caused by either the bullet itself or any accompanying cavitation, perfectly explains the rapid movement and extreme posture of the arms.

In the model I am presenting, JFK has his final wave and his right hand is moving back down to it's original position before the wave. It is also my assertion that the very first reaction of JFK to being shot is recorded in z225. However, the first frame we can see JFK's right hand after he emerges from behind the Stemmons sign is z224. If my theory is correct, that the first reaction is z225, then JFK's right hand should still be travelling downwards between z224 and z225, after which his right hand moves upwards, towards his throat.
Unsurprisingly, this is exactly what we see in the Z-film - the movement of JFK's right hand between z224 and z225 is downwards.
If JFK is already reacting to being shot, as you would have us believe, then why is his hand moving downwards (away from his throat) between z224 and z225?
My theory explains it - the reason it is moving downwards is because his right hand is moving down to it's original position before the last wave, on the edge of the limo door.

Yet another nail in the coffin.


Online Dan O'meara

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Re: The First Shot
« Reply #922 on: April 04, 2022, 11:11:56 PM »
JFK was clear of the tree from the SN when he was between the lamppost and the Thornton Freeway sign. He was opposite the Thornton sign at z200 and opposite the lamppost at z190.  You just need to use the Secret Service film:
These pics prove JFK was still behind dense foliage at z195. End of story.
Gerry has dealt with your Secret Service film nonsense on a number of ocassions:


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Ready releases his right hand from the front hand-hold by z199 and begins his turn to the right.  He had to do that to turn to the right rear as he said he did immediately after the first shot.  Was he clairvoyant in anticipating the first shot at z223?

The Z-film shows Ready looking over to the left then turning to his usual position, scanning the front and right. At no point does it show him making any attempt to turn to his right rear:



You also forget that Landis and Hickey reacted like Ready and they show no sign of moving.

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Yet you do admit that if the last shot was the headshot at z313, there had to have been a second shot around z271.  You just think it missed.  The evidence indicates that it hit JBC.

The overwhelming evidence demonstrates beyond doubt JBC was not hit around z271.
This thread is a record of your failure to make that point.

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Re: The First Shot
« Reply #922 on: April 04, 2022, 11:11:56 PM »


Offline Jack Nessan

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Re: The First Shot
« Reply #923 on: April 05, 2022, 03:42:03 PM »
A lot of people on this forum have explained to Jack over numerous years and in numerous ways the folly of this theory that there were only two shots, yet here it still is. This is all about shots at Z223 and z313 but no shots in between.

No one has ever explained why there was more than two shots. Prove there was three shots.

The reason you don't understand there was only two shots is because you have a limited grasp of the evidence. All the evidence points to two shots. Shooting time, bullets, shells, witness testimony, wounds. The WC conclusion includes the phrase about two shots and witness testimony as does the HSCA sound analysis. It is the only answer there is and ever will be. You can either accept it or not, makes no difference to me.

Offline Jack Nessan

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Re: The First Shot
« Reply #924 on: April 05, 2022, 03:48:28 PM »
Dan, If you are going to wrestle with a pig in the mud, always remember the pig likes it.

 :D
Thanks Jack, for the strangest advice I've ever been given, but well put.

Andrew's theory, as I understand it, is a first shot at z195, a second shot at z271(ish) and a third shot at z312/3.
We both agree the first shot hits JFK but a shot as early as z195 has to be taken through the oak tree, which is a non-starter. There is no evidence from JFK's reactions that he is hit before he passes behind the Stemmons sign at z207. The idea that JFK would "wait" for over a second and a half before the incredibly rapid movement of his arms into the extreme position we see in the Z-film is also a non-starter.
A shot as early as z195 is also refuted by the witness testimony of the 10 occupants of the VP and VP follow-up cars who unanimously agree the first shot took place after both cars had completed the turn off Houston onto Elm Street. It is also notable that none of the Secret Service agents reacts to the very loud, "explosive" sound of the first shot before z207, yet three of them testify that they turned to their right rear immediately after hearing the shot (as seen in Altgens 6).

As for the shot around z271, that has been blown out of the water in a multitude of different ways in this thread.

You seemed like you had become a little exasperated. The strange advice will become even more crystal clear as your discussion with Andrew progresses.

Andrew's theory will change and morph in an attempt to accommodate your new information. The Z270ish includes all the way down to Z250 where JBC's wounds are somehow the result of being shot while he was laying on Nellie's lap or something like that.

Sorry to say, but it doesn't matter how many times you blow it out of the water it will be back in a new form. The previous crashed forum was loaded with different ways it was proven wrong.

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Re: The First Shot
« Reply #924 on: April 05, 2022, 03:48:28 PM »


Online Andrew Mason

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Re: The First Shot
« Reply #925 on: April 05, 2022, 06:18:07 PM »
No one has ever explained why there was more than two shots. Prove there was three shots.

The reason you don't understand there was only two shots is because you have a limited grasp of the evidence. All the evidence points to two shots. Shooting time, bullets, shells, witness testimony, wounds. The WC conclusion includes the phrase about two shots and witness testimony as does the HSCA sound analysis. It is the only answer there is and ever will be. You can either accept it or not, makes no difference to me.
Are you asking me to prove to you that there were three shots?  That is obviously not going to be possible.  If you want to conclude that this distribution means only two shots:


you are welcome to do that.  But don't expect others to agree with you.

Online Andrew Mason

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Re: The First Shot
« Reply #926 on: April 05, 2022, 06:27:21 PM »
Andrew's theory will change and morph in an attempt to accommodate your new information. The Z270ish includes all the way down to Z250 where JBC's wounds are somehow the result of being shot while he was laying on Nellie's lap or something like that.
?? You obviously do not understand what I have been saying.  I am saying:

1. there were three shots (you don't agree with that, so the notion that you might accept where the three shots occurred is fatuous).
2. the first shot did not miss. It struck JFK in the neck. You agree with that.
3. the last shot did not miss. It struck JFK in the head. You agree with that.
4. the middle shot was closer to the last than the first.  You obviously don't accept the 1......2...3 shot pattern because you think there was no middle shot..

All I am doing is pointing out the abundant evidence that supports 4.  That, together with the overwhelming evidence that Oswald was the only shooter, tells you where the middle shot occurred.  It occurred perceptibly after the midpoint between first and last shots ie. a perceptible time after z250 but enough before z313 for Oswald to have fired it.  And there is abundant evidence that this is where it occurred.

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Re: The First Shot
« Reply #926 on: April 05, 2022, 06:27:21 PM »


Offline Bill Chapman

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Re: The First Shot
« Reply #927 on: April 05, 2022, 07:25:31 PM »
Swearing could be a natural form of pain relief:

"Research into the hypoalgesic effect of swearing has shown that the use of profanity can help reduce the sensation of pain. This phenomenon is particularly strong in people who do not use such words on a regular basis.
...
The effect has been described as being a form of stress-induced analgesia, with swearing due to a painful stimulus being a form of emotional response.[2][3] However, it is as yet unclear how swearing achieves the physical effects that have been described in the research. Swearing in response to pain may activate the amygdala which in turn triggers a fight-or-flight response. This then leads to a surge in adrenaline, a natural form of pain relief"

Wikipedia: Hypoalgesic Effect of Swearing

But, you first have to experience pain and then you have to be able to swear.  Neither may have applied to JFK experiencing his neck wound.

He didn't know the bullet was coming
I know the pain is coming as soon as I stub my toe
There's a definite delay before the pain is felt
« Last Edit: April 05, 2022, 07:26:56 PM by Bill Chapman »