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Author Topic: The First Shot  (Read 122211 times)

Online Andrew Mason

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Re: The First Shot
« Reply #880 on: February 14, 2022, 04:57:47 PM »
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So you missed the class in law school about the unreliability of witnesses to unexpected events?
No. But you seem to have.  Elizabeth Loftus, whose work in assessing eye-witness reliability is often referred to by courts, reports that witnesses are consistently more than 50% accurate on observations. If the observation is one made by more than 50% of the witnesses, the reliability approaches 98%. See Loftus, Eyewitness Testimony, p. 27:

Some of the witnesses were incorrect, but they are in the minority.  They are the two shorter bars on my chart.

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Did the WC say the photo was taken at exactly Z210 or did they say "approximately" Z210? Does one-half second (Z202 to Z210) fall into an approximation?
They said:

"Another photographer, Phillip L. Willis, snapped a picture at a time which he also asserts was simultaneous with the first shot. Analysis of his photograph revealed that it was taken at approximately frame 210 of the Zapruder film, which was the approximate time of the shot that probably hit the President and the Governor." (WR 112).

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My map shows where Z195 was in relation to the Thornton sign and the tree-trunk to signpost line, and it has the President behind foliage.

It doesn't accord with your lack of skill at photogrammetry when it comes to the SS reenactment film.
All I am concerned about is finding the frame in which JFK is between the lamp post and the Thornton sign.  So I put him there on a scale drawing of DP and extended a line from Zapruder past that point to see where it intersected.  It appears to make a tangent to the rounded wall of the north reflecting pool.  So I looked in the zframes to see where JFK was on a line between Zapruder and the rounded edge of the cement wall of the north reflecting pool. 


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"6 feet shorter"? Sounds like one of your porkies.
Not a guess. But you decide.  The President's car was 256 inches or 21 feet long. The car used in the SS film looks like a Ford Mercury Comet convertible (modified from original post):

which has an overall length of 194.5 inches.  That is 61.5 inches less than the President's car, so a tad more than 5 feet.  I had based the 6 feet on a Ford Falcon which is 181 inches long.  But it appears to be a Mercury Comet - the same car that the Cabell's rode in the motorcade. The Comet is 13.5 inches longer than the Falcon.

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What's wrong with using where the rear bumper is? And comparing on a map where the tree-trunk to lamp-post line is to where it is in the SS reenactment film? We then position the President on the map where he is in the Zapruder film and see where he is relative to the tree-trunk to lamp-post line which in turn show us where he is in the SS reenactment film.

What you did was just arbitrarily pick a film capture showing Kennedy clear of the foliage and associate it with Z195. You cherry-pick everything because of your Ash Heap Pet Theory.
I don't know what scale you are using or how big you think the car is or where you got your map.  You can provide all those details and you can show us what frame you think corresponds to the position of JFK as seen in the SS film:

I might be able to show where you have gone wrong.
« Last Edit: February 14, 2022, 08:31:35 PM by Andrew Mason »

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Re: The First Shot
« Reply #880 on: February 14, 2022, 04:57:47 PM »


Offline Bill Chapman

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Re: The First Shot
« Reply #881 on: February 14, 2022, 06:36:45 PM »

Does that mean he didn't see a man with a rifle or that he just guessed at how far back in the room the guy was?

The statement I made was simple enough...

Online Dan O'meara

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Re: The First Shot
« Reply #882 on: February 14, 2022, 07:27:44 PM »
The statement I made was simple enough...

It certainly was, as was my question.

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Re: The First Shot
« Reply #882 on: February 14, 2022, 07:27:44 PM »


Offline Bill Chapman

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Re: The First Shot
« Reply #883 on: February 15, 2022, 01:26:29 AM »
It certainly was, as was my question.

Why the need for your question in the first place..

Online Dan O'meara

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Re: The First Shot
« Reply #884 on: February 15, 2022, 01:52:34 AM »
Why the need for your question in the first place..

To clarify the intention of your post.

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Re: The First Shot
« Reply #884 on: February 15, 2022, 01:52:34 AM »


Offline Jerry Organ

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Re: The First Shot
« Reply #885 on: February 15, 2022, 03:34:52 AM »
No. But you seem to have.  Elizabeth Loftus, whose work in assessing eye-witness reliability is often referred to by courts, reports that witnesses are consistently more than 50% accurate on observations. If the observation is one made by more than 50% of the witnesses, the reliability approaches 98%. See Loftus, Eyewitness Testimony, p. 27:


The high numbers of that study improved based on the "salience of an item" or how prominent it appeared to observers (the test is almost all visual, BTW). In Dealey Plaza, the "first shot" that was treated by many as an ordinary "backfire" or "firecracker" was not that salient to some of those, and so did not trigger the mental preparation to gauge the "shot spanning" of unanticipated shots. Bugliosi--a renowned lawyer who could teach you a thing or two--says "they were in no position to compare the space between the second and third shots with that of the first and second."



    "When a complex incident is witnessed, not all of the details
     within that incident are equally salient, or memorable, to the
     viewer or hearer. Some things just catch our attention more
     readily than others."

How does Mrs. Loftus' words apply to all that was going on the seconds before and after the first shot? Crowd shouts and vehicle acceleration noise, trying to see the Kennedys and other dignitaries in the motorcade, a friend or family member getting your attention. All that outweighs something perceived by some, not all, as a "backfire" or "firecracker".

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Some of the witnesses were incorrect, but they are in the minority.  They are the two shorter bars on my chart.



The chart was produced by you? Now we know it's full of cherry-picks!

Dave Reitzes' tabulation didn't show such a skewed cluster:

    "My preliminary finding is that 58 witnesses reported that the
     second two shots were timed more closely together, 39 reported
     that the shots were timed about evenly, and 15 reported that
     the first two shots were timed more closely together."

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They said:

"Another photographer, Phillip L. Willis, snapped a picture at a time which he also asserts was simultaneous with the first shot. Analysis of his photograph revealed that it was taken at approximately frame 210 of the Zapruder film, which was the approximate time of the shot that probably hit the President and the Governor." (WR 112).

Keep in mind the Report's "approximate time" caveat before you write this kind of stuff: "Mind you, they were not able to figure out that Phil Willis' photo was taken at z202, almost a half second before z210, so I wouldn't put much faith in their expertise in such matters."

The Commission didn't seem to accept (as you have) without question Phil Willis' "instantaneous" claim. The Report justified its belief that the President was not wounded earlier than Z210:

    "According to Shaneyfelt the reaction was "clearly apparent in 226 and barely
     apparent in 225." It is probable that the President was not shot. before frame 210,
     since it is unlikely that the assassin would deliberately have shot at him with a
     view obstructed by the oak tree when he was about to have a clear opportunity.
     It is also doubtful that even the most proficient marksman would have hit him
     through the oak tree. In addition, the President's reaction is "barely apparent" in
     frame 225, which is 15 frames or approximately eight-tenths second after frame
     210, and a shot much before 210 would assume a longer reaction time than was
     recalled by eyewitnesses at the scene. Thus, the evidence indicated that the
     President was not hit until at least frame 210 and that he was probably hit by
     frame 225."

Although the President becomes visible a few frames before Z210, one has to allow a few frames for the assassin to reacquire the target and adjust the aim.

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All I am concerned about is finding the frame in which JFK is between the lamp post and the Thornton sign.  So I put him there on a scale drawing of DP and extended a line from Zapruder past that point to see where it intersected.  It appears to make a tangent to the rounded wall of the north reflecting pool.  So I looked in the zframes to see where JFK was on a line between Zapruder and the rounded edge of the cement wall of the north reflecting pool. 

 

Your map shows a green line exactly midway between the lamp post and the Thornton sign. And you seem to be associating this film capture with the map. Are you saying that this film capture you've been posting shows the "Kennedy" surrogate exactly midway between the lamp post and the Thornton sign?

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Not a guess. But you decide.  The President's car was 256 inches or 21 feet long. The car used in the SS film looks like a Ford Mercury Comet convertible (modified from original post):

which has an overall length of 194.5 inches.  That is 61.5 inches less than the President's car, so a tad more than 5 feet.  I had based the 6 feet on a Ford Falcon which is 181 inches long.  But it appears to be a Mercury Comet - the same car that the Cabell's rode in the motorcade. The Comet is 13.5 inches longer than the Falcon.

See if I can get you to shave a little more off that "6 feet shorter".

 


Some of these pictures are from Robin Unger's Photo Gallery, showing a Lincoln Continental was used for the reenactment. The SS-X-100 Presidential Limousine was said to be about 3 1/2 feet longer than the stock 1961 Continental it was built up from.

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I don't know what scale you are using or how big you think the car is or where you got your map.  You can provide all those details and you can show us what frame you think corresponds to the position of JFK as seen in the SS film:

I might be able to show where you have gone wrong.

I've seen your photogrammetry skills. And maybe if you didn't use the blurriest SS reenactment photos you could find (to make it seem like the foliage didn't impede the view to the car) you might have determined the car's model.

Offline Bill Chapman

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Re: The First Shot
« Reply #886 on: February 15, 2022, 11:03:07 AM »
To clarify the intention of your post.

The post is self-explanatory

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Re: The First Shot
« Reply #886 on: February 15, 2022, 11:03:07 AM »


Online Dan O'meara

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Re: The First Shot
« Reply #887 on: February 15, 2022, 11:20:41 AM »
The post is self-explanatory

Indeed it is, but you're reason for misrepresenting Rowland's words is not clear.
Is this the same thing Jerry was doing, twisting Rowland's testimony in order to discredit him as a witness, which in turn somehow casts doubt on whether Rowland even saw a man with a rifle.
Like Jerry, do you also believe Rowland saw a man holding a pop bottle with a telescopic sight on it?