The First Shot

[Dan O'meara]

I understand all that.

My work here is done 

 

[Andrew Mason]

My work here is done 

It is interesting that in his animation of the motorcade, Mark Tyler has the first shot sound at about z185.  He also shows that at z201 the President's car is where Karen Westbrook and Gloria Calvery placed it just after the time of the first shot. (Calvery, 22H638: "The car he was in was almost directly in front of where I was standing when I heard the first shot.").


Tyler's analysis does not exclude a first shot at z195. He says (MC63 Handbook, p. 21):

"As we can see from the Zapruder film there are two obvious signs
of the victims being struck by bullets during these times:
• Z225-Z230
• Z313-Z318
These two events are unambiguously the result of gunshot wounds.
Due to the Stemmons Freeway sign, the Zapruder film doesn’t reveal
the exact moment that the two victims were hit so the shot
could have been fired from any point during Z185-Z220. If the movements
we see at Z225-Z230 are the initial reactions then the gunshot
was probably fired during Z210-Z220. However if this is a reaction
to a second shot, then the first shot could have been fired
earlier, such as Z185-Z200 (which may have missed the victims in
the car)."

What he does not address is the time of the first shot if the movements seen at z225-230 are not the initial reactions: ie.the initial reactions to the first shot began while JFK is behind the Stemmons sign.  He is also assuming that the reaction of JBC to the shot that JFK is obviously reacting to is to being hit in the back by it and not, as JBC himself said, to the recognition of it as a rifle shot, thinking an assassination was unfolding and fearing for the President.

[Jerry Organ]

It is interesting that in his animation of the motorcade, Mark Tyler has the first shot sound at about z185.  He also shows that at z201 the President's car is where Karen Westbrook and Gloria Calvery placed it just after the time of the first shot. (Calvery, 22H638: "The car he was in was almost directly in front of where I was standing when I heard the first shot.").

Calvary couldn't be referring to a more oblique view she had of the President as the limousine neared her. She instead stood square-shouldered to the sidewalk edge and shut her eyes, and opened them when her friend said the President was perpendicular to her. Supposedly that's the only view she had.

BTW, Rachey and Skelton support a first shot miss. Rachey said "She observed President KENNEDY'S car pass her point of observation and almost immediately thereafter heard three explosions". Z201 is about eight seconds after the car passed her position; compare with about five seconds for a shot fired in the Z150s.

What he does not address is the time of the first shot if the movements seen at z225-230 are not the initial reactions: ie.the initial reactions to the first shot began while JFK is behind the Stemmons sign.  He is also assuming that the reaction of JBC to the shot that JFK is obviously reacting to is to being hit in the back by it and not, as JBC himself said, to the recognition of it as a rifle shot, thinking an assassination was unfolding and fearing for the President.

Here's Connally merely "showing concern" -- doing what Mason says: "thinking an assassination was unfolding and fearing for the President".

The Governor's wrist goes limp, he's gasping for breath and his right shoulder drops in comparison to his left shoulder. Have you ever seen anyone exhibit such gyrations in order to turn around to check on the person behind?

According to Mason's Ash Heap Theory, Connally isn't shot in the chest and wrist until after this animation ends.

[John Iacoletti]

I don't know how you could possibly know that he is "gasping for breath" here.

[Dan O'meara]

It is interesting that in his animation of the motorcade, Mark Tyler has the first shot sound at about z185.  He also shows that at z201 the President's car is where Karen Westbrook and Gloria Calvery placed it just after the time of the first shot. (Calvery, 22H638: "The car he was in was almost directly in front of where I was standing when I heard the first shot.").


Tyler's analysis does not exclude a first shot at z195. He says (MC63 Handbook, p. 21):

"As we can see from the Zapruder film there are two obvious signs
of the victims being struck by bullets during these times:
• Z225-Z230
• Z313-Z318
These two events are unambiguously the result of gunshot wounds.
Due to the Stemmons Freeway sign, the Zapruder film doesn’t reveal
the exact moment that the two victims were hit so the shot
could have been fired from any point during Z185-Z220. If the movements
we see at Z225-Z230 are the initial reactions then the gunshot
was probably fired during Z210-Z220. However if this is a reaction
to a second shot, then the first shot could have been fired
earlier, such as Z185-Z200 (which may have missed the victims in
the car)."

What he does not address is the time of the first shot if the movements seen at z225-230 are not the initial reactions: ie.the initial reactions to the first shot began while JFK is behind the Stemmons sign.  He is also assuming that the reaction of JBC to the shot that JFK is obviously reacting to is to being hit in the back by it and not, as JBC himself said, to the recognition of it as a rifle shot, thinking an assassination was unfolding and fearing for the President.

Oh, why did you have to come back?
My last post would've been a great way to end this thread.
But here you are, back for yet another lesson in basic English.

"He also shows that at z201 the President's car is where Karen Westbrook and Gloria Calvery placed it just after the time of the first shot."

When Calvery says the car was almost directly in front of her, there are two key components to the description - "directly in front of her" and "almost".
In English, this is the equivalent of saying "not quite directly in front" OR, to be super-precise, it is the same as saying "The President's car was not directly in front of her".
When we look at Tyler's mapping program, we can see that the limo is directly in front of Calvery from, roughly speaking, z190 to z214.
Unfortunately for you, z195 falls within this range and, as we can see from the graphic, at z195 the limo was directly in front of Calvery.
So, even on this tiniest of details, your model is refuted. Yet again. For about the 12th time.

"Tyler's analysis does not exclude a first shot at z195."

This isn't about Tyler's analysis, or Speer's analysis or even my own analysis.
The Tyler/Speer evidence I have presented speaks for itself.
It cannot realistically be denied, which is why you have provided no credible argument against it.
Every turn and twist you have tried you have been thwarted because this evidence speaks for itself.
It is very strong evidence and should be embraced as such but you would rather deny it because it doesn't fit with what you've decided. This, in my opinion, is a disgraceful way to approach the evidence.

But keep coming back.
It's a pleasure to continually serve you up in front of the rest of the forum.

[Andrew Mason]

Oh, why did you have to come back?
My last post would've been a great way to end this thread.
But here you are, back for yet another lesson in basic English.

"He also shows that at z201 the President's car is where Karen Westbrook and Gloria Calvery placed it just after the time of the first shot."

When Calvery says the car was almost directly in front of her, there are two key components to the description - "directly in front of her" and "almost".
In English, this is the equivalent of saying "not quite directly in front" OR, to be super-precise, it is the same as saying "The President's car was not directly in front of her".
When we look at Tyler's mapping program, we can see that the limo is directly in front of Calvery from, roughly speaking, z190 to z214.
Unfortunately for you, z195 falls within this range and, as we can see from the graphic, at z195 the limo was directly in front of Calvery.
So, even on this tiniest of details, your model is refuted. Yet again. For about the 12th time.

"Tyler's analysis does not exclude a first shot at z195."

This isn't about Tyler's analysis, or Speer's analysis or even my own analysis.
The Tyler/Speer evidence I have presented speaks for itself.
It cannot realistically be denied, which is why you have provided no credible argument against it.
Every turn and twist you have tried you have been thwarted because this evidence speaks for itself.
It is very strong evidence and should be embraced as such but you would rather deny it because it doesn't fit with what you've decided. This, in my opinion, is a disgraceful way to approach the evidence.

But keep coming back.
It's a pleasure to continually serve you up in front of the rest of the forum.

Again, you are relying completely on your interpretation that the occupants of the VP security car, in saying that they had made the turn onto Elm, could not possibly have been referring to the position of their car as shown in the Tyler animation at z201.  Particularly when Carter said that their car was along-side the TSBD - which is exactly the position seen in Tyler's animation at z201.  For some reason, you want to belittle others for disagreeing with your interpretation.

Mark Tyler was very aware of all these statements and states that the first shot could have been as early as z195.  So, in your view, has Tyler taken a disgraceful way to approach the evidence? 

The credible argument against the first shot being as late as z223 is based on evidence: Phil Willis, Linda Willis, the shot pattern (with the last shot being the head shot), SA Jack Ready, Rosemary Willis, as well as Croft and Betzner.   So you can't say I haven't presented an argument against a first shot at z223 based on credible evidence.  I can't help it if you don't find it credible and somehow think that no one could possibly have an honest belief that this evidence is credible and reliable.

[Andrew Mason]

Calvary couldn't be referring to a more oblique view she had of the President as the limousine neared her.

Possibly.  But we aren't relying just on Calvery.

BTW, Rachey and Skelton support a first show miss. Rachey said "She observed President KENNEDY'S car pass her point of observation and almost immediately thereafter heard three explosions". Z201 is about eight seconds after the car passed her position; compare with about five seconds for a shot fired in the Z150s.

The President's car was opposite Virgie Baker (Rachley) about a full car-length before Zapruder started filming at z133. That is about 21 Zapruder frames, so around z112 if Zapruder had been filming then.  The time between z112 and z195 is 4.5 seconds.  Baker said that when the first shot sounded, the car had passed by and she could not see the President very well.  She said that the car had started slightly into the curve on Elm (WC testimony, 7H509).  So that might put it a bit farther along than z150.

Here's Connally merely "showing concern" -- doing what Mason says: "thinking an assassination was unfolding and fearing for the President".

The Governor's wrist goes limp, he's gasping for breath and his right shoulder drops in comparison to his left shoulder. Have you ever seen anyone exhibit such gyrations in order to turn around to check on the person behind?

According to Mason's Ash Heap Theory, Connally isn't shot in the chest and wrist until after this animation ends.

That's right Jerry.  Just following the evidence. Perhaps you could show us where you think JBC makes that rearward turn to look at JFK......

[Jerry Organ]

Possibly.  But we aren't relying just on Calvery.
The President's car was opposite Virgie Baker (Rachley) about a full car-length before Zapruder started filming at z133. That is about 21 Zapruder frames, so around z112 if Zapruder had been filming then.  The time between z112 and z195 is 4.5 seconds. 

Here is 4.5 seconds before Z195:



The president at that point is about 70 to 80 feet away from Virgie Baker's position on the Tyler map.

Baker said that when the first shot sounded, the car had passed by and she could not see the President very well.  She said that the car had started slightly into the curve on Elm (WC testimony, 7H509).  So that might put it a bit farther along than z150.

So if the limousine has long since pass Baker by "Z112", "she could not see the President very well". You're trying to move Baker closer to where the limousine was in the Z150s. But, according to the Tyler map, Virgie Baker is roughly out from the southeast corner of the Depository building, so here's about where the President was closest to her.



This is about 7 1/2 seconds before Z195. That's a long time to match with Baker's statement: "She observed President KENNEDY'S car pass her point of observation and almost immediately thereafter heard three explosions".

But nice try.

That's right Jerry.  Just following the evidence. Perhaps you could show us where you think JBC makes that rearward turn to look at JFK......

Connally actually made a successful turn and did see the President? You're some evidence-follower. Connally made the effort to turn right before reaching the sign. He said he was facing forward or a bit left of forward (I figure his eyes were turned that way) when he was struck. The Zapruder film shows Connally almost facing forward by Z226.


Then this happened ...