The First Shot

[Andrew Mason]

I

Speers website is amazing and I regard him as a researcher's researcher.
As you seem to be having some kind of meltdown, it seems to have escaped your attention that z223 falls into the z190 - z224 range consistent with the 159 witnesses you mention.

Yes. But it is also consistent with a first shot at z195!!  That's my whole point!!

[Andrew Mason]

I've answered this question 3 times now. The turn was completed. 4 times now.
You are starting to move from denial into something more disturbing.
Go back and look at the statements of the occupants of these two vehicles. They all make definitive statements as to the positions of their respective vehicles at the moment of the first shot:

You have not answered the simple question.  I was just asking about Rich, the driver of the VP security car. Your logic escapes me. You admit that one can make the turn off Houston onto Elm and still not have completed the full 120 degree turn.  Yet that is all Rich says.  But you continue to insist that he is saying he completed the 120 degree turn.

[Dan O'meara]

You have not answered the simple question.  I was just asking about Rich, the driver of the VP security car. Your logic escapes me. You admit that one can make the turn off Houston onto Elm and still not have completed the full 120 degree turn.  Yet that is all Rich says.  But you continue to insist that he is saying he completed the 120 degree turn.

"You admit that one can make the turn off Houston onto Elm and still not have completed the full 120 degree turn."

 
Point out where I've "admitted" this.
Point out any instance I have used the phrase "120 degree turn".

[Dan O'meara]

Yes. But it is also consistent with a first shot at z195!!  That's my whole point!!

The Tyler/Speer evidence is not consistent with a first shot at z195.
This has been comprehensively demonstrated.
Your attempts to deny this fact have ranged from humorous to disturbing.
At z195 the VP security car is still in the process of making the turn off Houston onto Elm.
The occupants of the VP security car make it clear the vehicle has completed the turn and is now travelling on the incline down Elm Street.

[Andrew Mason]

"You admit that one can make the turn off Houston onto Elm and still not have completed the full 120 degree turn."

 
Point out where I've "admitted" this.
Point out any instance I have used the phrase "120 degree turn".

I asked:
So are you saying that the car could not be off Houston and on Elm without having completed the full 120 degree turn?

And you said:
No.

A negative answer to that question MEANS that you are agreeing that a car could be off Houston and on Elm without having completed the 120 degree turn.

[Andrew Mason]

The Tyler/Speer evidence is not consistent with a first shot at z195.
This has been comprehensively demonstrated.
Your attempts to deny this fact have ranged from humorous to disturbing.
At z195 the VP security car is still in the process of making the turn off Houston onto Elm.
The occupants of the VP security car make it clear the vehicle has completed the turn and is now travelling on the incline down Elm Street.

Dan, I am just quoting the z190-z224 range from the Pat Speers excerpt that you quoted in your reply post on November 02, 2020, 12:39:46 PM (#152).  The author stated that the witness evidence was consistent with a shot as early as z195.  Are you not relying on the same witnesses?  Or did you find some that Speers missed?

[Dan O'meara]

Dan, I am just quoting the z190-z224 range from the Pat Speers excerpt that you quoted in your reply post on November 02, 2020, 12:39:46 PM (#152).  The author stated that the witness evidence was consistent with a shot as early as z195.  Are you not relying on the same witnesses?  Or did you find some that Speers missed?

The majority of the witness statements regarding the shots fall within the z190-z224 range.
However, the first shot occurred at a specific frame within the z190-z224 range.
The beauty of the Tyler/Speer evidence is that it relates to a very specific moment - just after both the VP and VP security cars have completed the turn off Houston onto Elm St - and that this moment can be compared to Z-frames.
At z195 the VP security car is still the process of turning and, as such, z195 can be ruled out as the moment of the first shot.
It comes as no surprise to me, after the multitude of arguments I have presented in this thread for a first shot at z223, that mine is the only theory supported by the Tyler/Speer evidence.

   And no, I didn't come up with any witnesses Pat Speer had missed. I don't think anyone has.

[Andrew Mason]

The majority of the witness statements regarding the shots fall within the z190-z224 range.
However, the first shot occurred at a specific frame within the z190-z224 range.
The beauty of the Tyler/Speer evidence is that it relates to a very specific moment - just after both the VP and VP security cars have completed the turn off Houston onto Elm St - and that this moment can be compared to Z-frames.
At z195 the VP security car is still the process of turning and, as such, z195 can be ruled out as the moment of the first shot.
It comes as no surprise to me, after the multitude of arguments I have presented in this thread for a first shot at z223, that mine is the only theory supported by the Tyler/Speer evidence.

   And no, I didn't come up with any witnesses Pat Speer had missed. I don't think anyone has.

I understand all that.  But included in those 159 witnesses are people like Linda Willis, Phil Willis, Jack Ready, TE Moore who put the first shot at least a second earlier, one of whom, Phil Willis, gave a definitive statement that the first shot was just an instant before he pressed the shutter on his z202 photo.  You say Phil Willis is only one witness, but he isn't. Linda Willis supports him. She was standing between her mother and Croft.  When you plot the sightlines from her to the edges of the Stemmons sign on the Roberdeau map, it covers a region from just after z192 to just before z207.  TE Moore also corroborates Phil Willis.  He said that by the time the President had reached the Thornton Freeway sign the first shot sounded. JFK was opposite that sign at z200. There are others along Elm who provide similar corroboration.

You are choosing to ignore those witnesses in favour of your interpretation of the statements of the occupants of the VP Security car. In my view, these occupants are not saying anything more than their car had turned off Houston onto Elm and that is consistent with a first shot where Phil Willis, Linda Willis and TE Moore describe it.