The First Shot

[Andrew Mason]

This is correct.
My belief JFK is exhibiting a reflex reaction to the bullet passing through his neck is based on the recorded, measurable, sudden and extreme physical movements he undergoes.

This doesn't mean anything. So what if there's no consensus? I'm presenting measurable and extremely rapid physical movements indicative of a reflex reaction to a stimulus.

Read the definition of reflex reaction again -

"A reflex, or reflex action, is an involuntary and nearly instantaneous movement in response to a stimulus. A reflex is made possible by neural pathways called reflex arcs which can act on an impulse before that impulse reaches the brain. The reflex is then an automatic response to a stimulus that does not receive or need conscious thought."

When I say "JFK doesn't have to realise something is wrong before he reacts to being shot" this is not a guess. It's an inherent part of the definition of 'reflex reaction'.

Yes. As I said, I agree that a reflex is not a brain driven response.  But that does not mean that every sudden response is a  reflex.  If I suddenly jerk my lower leg it may look like a reflex.  But if it is not done within a few milliseconds after the stimulus (e.g. by the doctor hitting my knee) it is not a reflex reaction.  Furthermore, not every nerve stimulation causes muscle contractions.   Can you provide any evidence at all for an immediate reflex action of arms and hands caused by stimulation of nerves in the neck?

Another meaningless statement

You do this too often for it to be accidental.
Time after time I have argued for a first reaction at z225.

You have spent the last several posts arguing that his face is not showing a reaction in z225.  I thought you were, therefore, arguing that the facial response began at z226-227. So are you now arguing that the facial response is NOT a reflex? In that case, it may be too fast for a deliberate action for a shot occurring at z223.

[Dan O'meara]

Yes. As I said, I agree that a reflex is not a brain driven response.  But that does not mean that every sudden response is a  reflex.  If I suddenly jerk my lower leg it may look like a reflex.  But if it is not done within a few milliseconds after the stimulus (e.g. by the doctor hitting my knee) it is not a reflex reaction.

 
So JFK decided to make this extreme and rapid reaction reaching for his throat and by some outrageous coincidence just happened to be shot through the neck milliseconds before he made it.

Wow 

You have spent the last several posts arguing that his face is not showing a reaction in z225.  I thought you were, therefore, arguing that the facial response began at z226-227. So are you now arguing that the facial response is NOT a reflex? In that case, it may be too fast for a deliberate action for a shot occurring at z223.

This is a blatant falsehood on your behalf.
Just a few posts back I wrote this:

"At no point have I ever tried to argue anything from JFK's facial expressions.
The resolution of the Z-film is clearly not good enough.
Never have I even hinted at using this aspect of the Z-film to determine reactions.
On the contrary - it is you who keeps dragging in JFK's facial expressions as if can you discern something from them. Does this quote ring a bell:

"We cannot see JFK's face until z225 and in that frame it is already contorted with an unnatural expression."

I have pointed out the resolution is not good enough to reach any conclusions using facial reactions but apparently you can reach conclusions from it.
Really?"

I have made it perfectly clear I put no value on JFK's facial expression and it has never formed any part of the arguments I have presented for his reaction to the first shot.
This is just more of your twisting and turning misrepresentation instead of engaging with the arguments being presented.
It is the strategy of someone who has lost the argument but will not accept it.
Anyone who wishes to read through the thread will find I have argued that JFK's very first physical reaction to being shot takes place at z225.

[Andrew Mason]

So JFK decided to make this extreme and rapid reaction reaching for his throat and by some outrageous coincidence just happened to be shot through the neck milliseconds before he made it.

Wow

You seem not to recognize the circular nature of that argument.  You are assuming he was hit at z223.  That is what you are trying to prove.

This is a blatant falsehood on your behalf.
Just a few posts back I wrote this:

"At no point have I ever tried to argue anything from JFK's facial expressions.
The resolution of the Z-film is clearly not good enough.
Never have I even hinted at using this aspect of the Z-film to determine reactions.
On the contrary - it is you who keeps dragging in JFK's facial expressions as if can you discern something from them. Does this quote ring a bell:

"We cannot see JFK's face until z225 and in that frame it is already contorted with an unnatural expression."

I have pointed out the resolution is not good enough to reach any conclusions using facial reactions but apparently you can reach conclusions from it.
Really?"

I have made it perfectly clear I put no value on JFK's facial expression and it has never formed any part of the arguments I have presented for his reaction to the first shot.
This is just more of your twisting and turning misrepresentation instead of engaging with the arguments being presented.
It is the strategy of someone who has lost the argument but will not accept it.
Anyone who wishes to read through the thread will find I have argued that JFK's very first physical reaction to being shot takes place at z225.

I thought you were just referring to frame z225.  You cannot discern JFK's facial expression after z225? How about at z228?:

Do you not think that his face is reacting to the same thing that his arms are reacting to?

If you cannot see JFK's facial expression then you cannot see JBC's facial expression.  How are you concluding that JBC is reacting to being hit in the back at z223 then?  It has to be more than just the turn because he said he turned around because he was concerned about having heard a rifle shot and feared an assassination was underway.

[Dan O'meara]

You seem not to recognize the circular nature of that argument.  You are assuming he was hit at z223.  That is what you are trying to prove.

I thought you were just referring to frame z225.  You cannot discern JFK's facial expression after z225? How about at z228?:

Do you not think that his face is reacting to the same thing that his arms are reacting to?

Your posts have descended into random, meaningless comments unrelated to the posts you're replying to.
I don't know what to say.

If you cannot see JFK's facial expression then you cannot see JBC's facial expression.  How are you concluding that JBC is reacting to being hit in the back at z223 then?  It has to be more than just the turn because he said he turned around because he was concerned about having heard a rifle shot and feared an assassination was underway.

This has already been explained. You'll have to actually read what I've posted.
The clue is the big, whitish blob in front of JBC's face.

[Dan O'meara]

When does JBC react?

[Andrew Mason]

Your posts have descended into random, meaningless comments unrelated to the posts you're replying to.
I don't know what to say.

??When you say: "So JFK decided to make this extreme and rapid reaction reaching for his throat and by some outrageous coincidence just happened to be shot through the neck milliseconds before he made it." you are saying that it is ridiculous to suggest that he had this reaction milliseconds after being shot in the neck but that there is no connection between being shot.  I agree.  That would be ridiculous to suggest.  That is one reason I have never suggested it.  His reaction is obviously a reaction to being shot.  A word of advice: if you are going to set up a stawman argument, don't make it a circular.

The question is how long before this was he shot?  Nothing you have shown or argued excludes the possibility the he may have been reacting for all or some part of the second or more before when he was obscured by the sign after being shot around z200 or slightly before, which is where the evidence indicates the first shot occurred.

This has already been explained. You'll have to actually read what I've posted.
The clue is the big, whitish blob in front of JBC's face.

And why would JBC not move the hat he was holding in order to turn around to see JFK?

[Dan O'meara]

??When you say: "So JFK decided to make this extreme and rapid reaction reaching for his throat and by some outrageous coincidence just happened to be shot through the neck milliseconds before he made it." you are saying that it is ridiculous to suggest that he had this reaction milliseconds after being shot in the neck but that there is no connection between being shot.  I agree.  That would be ridiculous to suggest.  That is one reason I have never suggested it.  His reaction is obviously a reaction to being shot.  A word of advice: if you are going to set up a stawman argument, don't make it a circular.

Wow
In a previous post you made this absolutely ridiculous point:

"But that does not mean that every sudden response is a  reflex.  If I suddenly jerk my lower leg it may look like a reflex.  But if it is not done within a few milliseconds after the stimulus (e.g. by the doctor hitting my knee) it is not a reflex reaction."

In your desperation to try and come up with some kind of counter-argument, no matter how bizarre or weak, you made the above ludicrous statement and I was making fun of it.

The question is how long before this was he shot?  Nothing you have shown or argued excludes the possibility the he may have been reacting for all or some part of the second or more before when he was obscured by the sign after being shot around z200 or slightly before, which is where the evidence indicates the first shot occurred.

There is no extreme reaction of any kind present in the Z-film before z225.
There is after z225
In your desperation you want to hide behind the Stemmons sign and play "What if"
The fact remains, regardless of some potential, maybe reaction you might want to cling on to - the time gap between your proposed shot at z195 and the radical and rapid reactions recorded in the Z-film at z225, is over one and a half seconds.
To have some mild kind of reaction for this time then suddenly to burst into the intensely rapid physical reactions we see in the Z-film is preposterous and it's on you to show anything from anywhere that is remotely like that.
Good luck

And why would JBC not move the hat he was holding in order to turn around to see JFK?

[Andrew Mason]

Wow
In a previous post you made this absolutely ridiculous point:

"But that does not mean that every sudden response is a  reflex.  If I suddenly jerk my lower leg it may look like a reflex.  But if it is not done within a few milliseconds after the stimulus (e.g. by the doctor hitting my knee) it is not a reflex reaction."

In your desperation to try and come up with some kind of counter-argument, no matter how bizarre or weak, you made the above ludicrous statement and I was making fun of it.

So.... you really were you saying that every sudden jerk reaction is necessarily a reflex?

There is no extreme reaction of any kind present in the Z-film before z225.
There is after z225
In your desperation you want to hide behind the Stemmons sign and play "What if"
The fact remains, regardless of some potential, maybe reaction you might want to cling on to - the time gap between your proposed shot at z195 and the radical and rapid reactions recorded in the Z-film at z225, is over one and a half seconds.
To have some mild kind of reaction for this time then suddenly to burst into the intensely rapid physical reactions we see in the Z-film is preposterous and it's on you to show anything from anywhere that is remotely like that.
Good luck

If that is the case, the WC, HSCA, Bugliosi etc. were preposterous for thinking it possible.  Ok.  What about John McCloy's (corrected: not McCone's) anecdote about the soldier who had a very gradual reaction to being (corrected: not fatally) shot through the chest?