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Author Topic: The First Shot  (Read 125916 times)

Online Charles Collins

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Re: The First Shot
« Reply #304 on: November 20, 2020, 12:44:42 PM »
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One does not have to guess. The first press car was the car immediately behind the Cabell car. The Cabell car was immediately behind the VP Security car.  The VP Security car was immediately behind the VP car.  We can see that the VP car at z160 is pointing north of a line from Zapruder to the corner so it is about half way into the turn.  The Cabell car has yet to enter the intersection.  So the first press car is still about 2 car lengths from entering the intersection.  That is about 30 feet. Moving at about 1 foot per frame, maybe a bit slower going through the intersection, that would put the first press car just entering the intersection at z190 which correlates to the first shot.  That fits Betzner, Willis and about 20 others including the occupants of the cars ahead of the press car.
Why would you say that!?  That is what I have been saying the shot pattern was!

You left out the best part.  Kilduff continued:
HARTIGAN: So you're of the school of thought that you heard three shots.
KILDUFF: Oh, I know I heard three shots. Nobody's going to tell me I didn't hear three shots. I mean I know that there was a long pause because there was that little interchange of conversation between Merriman Smith and me between the first and the second shot. Then the third shot got off very quickly.

What is somewhat remarkable is that Kilduff did not give that statement to the WC or the FBI or the Dallas Sheriff.  He gave it in 1976 in an interview as part of an oral history project.  Those last two shots being closer together remained in his memory for 13 years.  He was in the same car as Jackson and Jackson did give a statement on 22Nov63 to the FBI and Jackson also mentioned the last two shots being in rapid succession. He still maintains that the last two were closer together and he is now 86 years old.   I am pretty sure that Kilduff would not agree that 5 seconds between the last two shots = third shot getting off very quickly.

He was in the same car as Jackson...

I believe that Bob Jackson was three cars behind Kilduff. Here is what Bob Baskin wrote:

“Malcolm Kilduff, the assistant White House press secretary, rode in the front seat of the pool car with Merriman Smith between him and a Department of Public Safety driver. I was on the left in the rear seat with Jack Bell between me and Bob Clark.

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Re: The First Shot
« Reply #304 on: November 20, 2020, 12:44:42 PM »


Online Charles Collins

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Re: The First Shot
« Reply #305 on: November 20, 2020, 01:27:52 PM »
What is this "visual evidence" of a missed shot?
A missed first shot, no less?

They are referred to in the threads that I referenced a few posts ago in this thread. You can find the links to these other threads (Victoria Adams’ view from the fourth floor window” and “Why the first shot missed”) in that post. Off the top of my head, some of them include:

The traffic cop Harkness suddenly turning away from his assigned duty at the intersection of Main and Houston and walking in the direction of the limo on Elm Street with a concerned look on his face (as seen in the Hughes film).

The head turns and looks of concern by the limo occupants (as seen in the Zapruder film).

The sudden head jerk back towards the TSBD and simultaneous beginning of a slow to stop from running by Rosemary Willis (as seen on the Zapruder film).

The sudden jerk upwards and then stop of the operating movie camera being held by Dorman.

The end of Tina Towners film segment of the limo with the first shot happening  just after she stopped it (per Tina Towner).

The out of focus photo by Phil Willis (#4). I believe that the reason it is out of focus is that the first shot caused him to inadvertently press the shutter button before he was completely ready to shoot. His later testimony at the Clay Shaw trial states that one of his photos was taken as a result of the first shot. I believe that by then he realized that his fifth photo wasn’t in sync with any shots. And the forth photo is the only one of his photos that is that much out of focus.

Other evidence (that we need to use a 3-D computer model or map of Dealey Plaza to obtain the visual aspects) includes Howard Brennan’s account in his 11/22/63 affidavit regarding JFK lining up with the last windows of the TSBD from Brennan’s position when the first shot rang out. And Victoria Adams’ account of the limo going behind the tree from her position as the first shot sounded.

All of the above items occurred right around the time of Z133. I believe that the sound of the first shot is the reason.

Offline Jerry Organ

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Re: The First Shot
« Reply #306 on: November 20, 2020, 01:47:16 PM »
One does not have to guess. The first press car was the car immediately behind the Cabell car. The Cabell car was immediately behind the VP Security car.  The VP Security car was immediately behind the VP car.  We can see that the VP car at z160 is pointing north of a line from Zapruder to the corner so it is about half way into the turn. 

The VP car at Z160 is facing west, about 70° off Houston Street; a full turn off a typical street would be 90°. Z160 would coincide with all this:
  • Jacks (driver): "My car had just straightened up from making the left turn..."
  • Youngblood (SS agent): "As we were beginning to go down this incline ..."
  • LBJ" "After we had proceeded a short way down Elm Street..."
  • Lady Bird: "We were rounding a curve, going down a hill..."
Yes, Jacks says the car "just straightened up from making the left turn" but that could mean he was easing pressure off the steering wheel and allowing the car to straighten up.

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The Cabell car has yet to enter the intersection.  So the first press car is still about 2 car lengths from entering the intersection.  That is about 30 feet. Moving at about 1 foot per frame, maybe a bit slower going through the intersection, that would put the first press car just entering the intersection at z190 which correlates to the first shot.

As that is basically the end of the block, it doesn't fit with what Baskin said about being "halfway down the block before the left turn when the first shot rang out". I also believe Bell was talking about the mid-block area when he said "the cavern between the tall buildings we were just leaving behind us"

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That fits Betzner, Willis and about 20 others including the occupants of the cars ahead of the press car.

Twisting what the Press Pool people said. to make it conform to your pet theory. Willis said Mrs. Kennedy turned from his side of the street to the opposite when the first shot sounded; she does this beginning in the Z170s.

Betzner said he was winding his camera when he heard a shot; he's still lowering the camera when he goes out of sight in the Zapruder film at Z207 (he's also seen in the Dorman film looking around, not down). Since Betzner recalled two specific shots, the head shot and the one while he was winding his film, it could be the "first" of those two shots occurred during the Z220s when he would have gotten to winding his camera.

 

This is mindful of Jean Newman's recollection. Two shots, the "first" being the slump shot (which I believe struck in the Z220s). And she says: "The motorcade had just passed me when I heard that I thought was a firecracker at first, and the President had just passed me." Neither the "motorcade" (limousine?) nor the President are pass Newman in the Z190s or Z200s.

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Why would you say that!?  That is what I have been saying the shot pattern was!

You left out the best part.  Kilduff continued:
HARTIGAN: So you're of the school of thought that you heard three shots.
KILDUFF: Oh, I know I heard three shots. Nobody's going to tell me I didn't hear three shots. I mean I know that there was a long pause because there was that little interchange of conversation between Merriman Smith and me between the first and the second shot. Then the third shot got off very quickly.

What is somewhat remarkable is that Kilduff did not give that statement to the WC or the FBI or the Dallas Sheriff.  He gave it in 1976 in an interview as part of an oral history project.  Those last two shots being closer together remained in his memory for 13 years.  He was in the same car as Jackson and Jackson did give a statement on 22Nov63 to the FBI and Jackson also mentioned the last two shots being in rapid succession. He still maintains that the last two were closer together and he is now 86 years old.   I am pretty sure that Kilduff would not agree that 5 seconds between the last two shots = third shot getting off very quickly.

My error about Kilduff and you demonstrates how people perceive things and get it wrong. I've gotten Greer mixed up with Kellerman; sometimes I use right when I mean left.

Here are some examples of how others perceived the shot span. The Commission seemed aware of the majority view.

     Mr. DULLES. I just have one question. Mrs. Connally, on one point
     your testimony differs from a good many others as to the timing of
     the shots. I think you said that there seemed to be more time
     between the second and third than between the first and the second;
     is that your recollection?

     Mrs. CONNALLY. Yes.

     Mr. DILLARD - I heard three - the three approximately equally spaced.

     Bill Newman Affidavit: ... he heard the first shot fired. It was his belief
     that two shots were fired in rapid succession which he thought at the
     time was a firecracker ... another shot was fired which he estimated
     was ten seconds after the first shot was fired."

    ("No More Silence"): "The first two were much closer together in my opinion."

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Re: The First Shot
« Reply #306 on: November 20, 2020, 01:47:16 PM »


Online Andrew Mason

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Re: The First Shot
« Reply #307 on: November 20, 2020, 02:03:36 PM »
He was in the same car as Jackson...

I believe that Bob Jackson was three cars behind Kilduff. Here is what Bob Baskin wrote:

“Malcolm Kilduff, the assistant White House press secretary, rode in the front seat of the pool car with Merriman Smith between him and a Department of Public Safety driver. I was on the left in the rear seat with Jack Bell between me and Bob Clark.
I think you are right. Jackson was not in the same car as Merriman Smith. He was in the car immediately behind the first open press convertible.  He said he was in the eighth car in the motorcade but I think he was not counting the lead Sheriff's car.  The Cabell car was #6, the White House pool car was #7, then there were two open press cars and Jackson was in the second so that would be #9.  It is a bit odd that no one in the pool car gave statements or testified before the WC.

Offline Jerry Organ

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Re: The First Shot
« Reply #308 on: November 20, 2020, 02:06:04 PM »
They are referred to in the threads that I referenced a few posts ago in this thread. You can find the links to these other threads (Victoria Adams’ view from the fourth floor window” and “Why the first shot missed”) in that post. Off the top of my head, some of them include:

The traffic cop Harkness suddenly turning away from his assigned duty at the intersection of Main and Houston and walking in the direction of the limo on Elm Street with a concerned look on his face (as seen in the Hughes film).

The head turns and looks of concern by the limo occupants (as seen in the Zapruder film).

The sudden head jerk back towards the TSBD and simultaneous beginning of a slow to stop from running by Rosemary Willis (as seen on the Zapruder film).

The sudden jerk upwards and then stop of the operating movie camera being held by Dorman.

Dorman does that while the limousine is on Houston. She's not using the viewfinder but holding the camera at chest level.

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The end of Tina Towners film segment of the limo with the first shot happening  just after she stopped it (per Tina Towner).

The out of focus photo by Phil Willis (#4). I believe that the reason it is out of focus is that the first shot caused him to inadvertently press the shutter button before he was completely ready to shoot. His later testimony at the Clay Shaw trial states that one of his photos was taken as a result of the first shot. I believe that by then he realized that his fifth photo wasn’t in sync with any shots. And the forth photo is the only one of his photos that is that much out of focus.

Quite the take on the Willis photos. Shoehorn any evidence into a preconceived theory. That's what Mason does.

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Other evidence (that we need to use a 3-D computer model or map of Dealey Plaza to obtain the visual aspects) includes Howard Brennan’s account in his 11/22/63 affidavit regarding JFK lining up with the last windows of the TSBD from Brennan’s position when the first shot rang out.

    "I proceeded to watch the President's car as it turned left at the
     corner where I was and about 50 yards from the intersection of
     Elm and Houston and to a point I would say the President's back
     was in line with the last windows I have previously described I
     heard what I thought was a back fire."

By "last windows", Brennan didn't mean the SW set of windows. He meant "the last windows I had previously described" meaning the SE windows. And I believe Brennan was describing the President's back facing squarely back towards the SE windows.This doesn't happen in the Z130s but later.

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And Victoria Adams’ account of the limo going behind the tree from her position as the first shot sounded.

All of the above items occurred right around the time of Z133. I believe that the sound of the first shot is the reason.

Maybe you can sell Mason on it.

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Re: The First Shot
« Reply #308 on: November 20, 2020, 02:06:04 PM »


Online Andrew Mason

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Re: The First Shot
« Reply #309 on: November 20, 2020, 02:30:35 PM »
What is this "visual evidence" of a missed shot?
A missed first shot, no less?
There is no evidence, let alone visual evidence, of a missed shot.  According to the current SBT (as opposed to the WC SBT), Oswald missed the entire limo on the first and closest shot. Yet no one could find evidence of anything it hit. And no one noticed that JFK kept smiling and waving for 2-3 seconds afterward. And over 20 witnesses mistakenly recalled him reacting immediately by moving/leaning left, or ducking or clutching his chest/neck after the first shot.  And Betzner was mistaken that his z186 photo was taken just before the first shot.  And Croft was mistaken that his z163 photo was taken before the first shot and he had enough time to wind his camera and click the shutter at the time of the first shot. And over 40 witnesses mistakenly recalled that the last two shots were in rapid succession.

Online Charles Collins

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Re: The First Shot
« Reply #310 on: November 20, 2020, 02:51:41 PM »
There is no evidence, let alone visual evidence, of a missed shot.  According to the current SBT (as opposed to the WC SBT), Oswald missed the entire limo on the first and closest shot. Yet no one could find evidence of anything it hit. And no one noticed that JFK kept smiling and waving for 2-3 seconds afterward. And over 20 witnesses mistakenly recalled him reacting immediately by moving/leaning left, or ducking or clutching his chest/neck after the first shot.  And Betzner was mistaken that his z186 photo was taken just before the first shot.  And Croft was mistaken that his z163 photo was taken before the first shot and he had enough time to wind his camera and click the shutter at the time of the first shot. And over 40 witnesses mistakenly recalled that the last two shots were in rapid succession.


There is no evidence, let alone visual evidence, of a missed shot.

The apparent bullet marks on and around the manhole cover on the south side of Elm Street. The apparent bullet mark on the curb near Tague on Main Street. The scratch on Tague’s face apparently from a fragment of bullet or concrete. All of these are evidence of a missed shot. If all three shots hit their target as you proclaim, what the heck do you propose  caused these marks?

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Re: The First Shot
« Reply #310 on: November 20, 2020, 02:51:41 PM »


Online Charles Collins

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Re: The First Shot
« Reply #311 on: November 20, 2020, 03:11:37 PM »
Dorman does that while the limousine is on Houston. She's not using the viewfinder but holding the camera at chest level.

Quite the take on the Willis photos. Shoehorn any evidence into a preconceived theory. That's what Mason does.

    "I proceeded to watch the President's car as it turned left at the
     corner where I was and about 50 yards from the intersection of
     Elm and Houston and to a point I would say the President's back
     was in line with the last windows I have previously described I
     heard what I thought was a back fire."

By "last windows", Brennan didn't mean the SW set of windows. He meant "the last windows I had previously described" meaning the SE windows. And I believe Brennan was describing the President's back facing squarely back towards the SE windows.This doesn't happen in the Z130s but later.

Maybe you can sell Mason on it.

Dorman does that while the limousine is on Houston. She's not using the viewfinder but holding the camera at chest level.

I am discussing the end of the Dorman segment just before Zapruder 133. And I am aware of how Dorman was using the camera. She was relatively close to the rifle (compared to most other witnesses) and I believe the unexpected sudden loud sound would have startled her enough to cause the sudden jerk and stop.

By "last windows", Brennan didn't mean the SW set of windows. He meant "the last windows I had previously described" meaning the SE windows. And I believe Brennan was describing the President's back facing squarely back towards the SE windows.This doesn't happen in the Z130s but later.

You are doing exactly what you accuse Mason and I of doing. In this case, a shoehorn ain’t going to do it though. Why do you think Brennan would be describing this from any viewpoint other than his own. To imagine your idea Brennan would need to mentally place himself in the middle of Elm Street. This idea is ridiculous. But it fits your narrative, so I suppose that it makes sense to you.