The First Shot

[Charles Collins]

I think this a really important point Steve. It boils down to the oak tree that partly obscures the route of the Presidential limo from the sniper's nest. Possibly Charles can help out here as I can't find a reliable estimation of when the limo emerged from behind the oak tree from in terms of z-frames (as seen from the sniper's nest). I suspect an assassin, firing from the sniper's nest would take the first shot as soon as the limo was clear of the oak tree, but I'm not 100% sure when this is.

Dan, looking at Don Roberdeau’s map, it appears to me that JFK would have been behind the tree between approximately Z165 to Z207. I hope that helps.

[Dan O'meara]

One of the more unambiguous descriptions of when the first shot occurred comes from Victoria Adams. Here is a link to a thread I started a while back regarding this:

https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,2647.0.html

The fact that Victoria’s position and the position of the tree that blocked her view are stationary positions is what makes her description less ambiguous than many others.

Hey Charles,
This thread is kind of inspired by your own thread. I was working on something else at the time but started to come across witness statements from people who claimed the first shot occurred as the Pres. limo was, more or less, in front of them. These witnesses were a lot further down Elm Street than the limo at z133 and I was trying to clarify what was going on which has led to this thread. Obviously, the evidence, as I've interpreted it has taken me towards a very different conclusion than your own.
In terms of Adam's description, I find it quite vague in terms of when the first shot took place after the limo disappeared from view. Of the four women stood at the window, I feel that Dorothy Garner's statement contains the most useful information:

"I recall that moments following the passing of the Presidential car I heard three loud reports which I first thought to be fireworks but only seconds later realized that something has happened on the street below although at the time of the shots, the Presidential car was out of view behind a tree."

[Jerry Organ]

Ten seconds over six is an indictment of the SS. Do I think they should have saved JFK? No, but there should have been a quicker reaction. Yes, easy for me sitting on my butt to say that.

The training is probably much better today. For example, there probably was little evasive driving training with a limousine in 1963.

As to Biden: I voted for him (Harris is completely unqualified for high office) but for a Republican Senator, i.e., divided government. That looks to be what we got. I didn't expect a Biden blowout but it looks like it's going to be something around 272 or so. He's going to have to moderate his policies if that holds up. The hard left (or hard right) won't like it but too bad.

Well, Biden said he is and will be moderate. The only "radical" thing the Obama Administration did was Affordable Care. Trump sees himself as a moderate, so anything short of racist dog-whistles and not raising taxes on billionaires and large corporations will get Biden labelled a Communist.

As to the electorate: our liberal press and elites simply cannot think beyond race. They think black and Hispanics are over there; and whites over here. There's much more diversity within those groups than the liberal/left realizes or wants. That's a great sign for the country. A white party and a non-white party is not good for the country.

Trump took most of the Confederacy, the Civil War border states and upper North-Midwest. In other words, those areas that spawn White Power groups and have a nasty history of treatment towards minorities. His strength in other areas of the country was in the rural areas, not metropolitan, and he slipped among suburban women.

[Dan O'meara]

Dan, looking at Don Roberdeau’s map, it appears to me that JFK would have been behind the tree between approximately Z165 to Z207. I hope that helps.

The various arguments I've presented in this thread have led me to a first shot at z223. Assuming this came from the sniper's nest the shooter would have approximately one second to take aim and fire after the limo emerges from behind the oak tree (at z207). I don't really know about these things but it seems reasonable to me.

[Charles Collins]

The various arguments I've presented in this thread have led me to a first shot at z223. Assuming this came from the sniper's nest the shooter would have approximately one second to take aim and fire after the limo emerges from behind the oak tree (at z207). I don't really know about these things but it seems reasonable to me.

I agree with your reasoning, but it appears to me that that was the second shot.

[Dan O'meara]

Ten seconds over six is an indictment of the SS. Do I think they should have saved JFK? No, but there should have been a quicker reaction. Yes, easy for me sitting on my butt to say that.

There was an interesting section in the article you posted describing how the agents reacted:

"One witness’s recollections go far in helping us understand why the Secret Service reacted as it did. Landis, standing on the right rear running board of the Secret Service car just behind Kennedy’s limousine, explained his thinking process during the shooting in exhaustive detail. He wrote that he “heard what sounded like the report of a high-powered rifle” and that “there was no question in my mind what it was.” Yet doubts immediately began to sap his initial certitude.  Landis elaborated that he looked around, “observed nothing unusual,” and “began to think to think the sound had been that of a firecracker.” Landis recalled that Agent John Ready, in front of Landis on the running board, asked him “What was it? A firecracker?” Landis answered, “I don’t know; I don’t see any smoke.” Landis then thought that the sound might have been a tire blowout; he looked at the right front tire of the president’s limousine and saw that it was intact. He could not see the right rear tire from his position. Landis then saw Kennedy’s head “split open” and realized that the first loud sound had been a gunshot, just as he initially thought."


They reacted immediately but had nothing to go on, nothing to react to. A few seconds passed and it was too late. There was nothing they could have done. My only criticism is of the driver, Greer, who I feel should not have slowed down to a walking pace at the moment of the headshot.

[Charles Collins]

There was an interesting section in the article you posted describing how the agents reacted:

"One witness’s recollections go far in helping us understand why the Secret Service reacted as it did. Landis, standing on the right rear running board of the Secret Service car just behind Kennedy’s limousine, explained his thinking process during the shooting in exhaustive detail. He wrote that he “heard what sounded like the report of a high-powered rifle” and that “there was no question in my mind what it was.” Yet doubts immediately began to sap his initial certitude.  Landis elaborated that he looked around, “observed nothing unusual,” and “began to think to think the sound had been that of a firecracker.” Landis recalled that Agent John Ready, in front of Landis on the running board, asked him “What was it? A firecracker?” Landis answered, “I don’t know; I don’t see any smoke.” Landis then thought that the sound might have been a tire blowout; he looked at the right front tire of the president’s limousine and saw that it was intact. He could not see the right rear tire from his position. Landis then saw Kennedy’s head “split open” and realized that the first loud sound had been a gunshot, just as he initially thought."


They reacted immediately but had nothing to go on, nothing to react to. A few seconds passed and it was too late. There was nothing they could have done. My only criticism is of the driver, Greer, who I feel should not have slowed down to a walking pace at the moment of the headshot.

Exactly! The same thing can be said for the other occupants of the limo. (see the head turns and quizzical expressions referenced in the thread about Victoria Adams that I linked to earlier in this thread).

[Steve M. Galbraith]

The training is probably much better today. For example, there probably was little evasive driving training with a limousine in 1963.

Well, Biden said he is and will be moderate. The only "radical" thing the Obama Administration did was Affordable Care. Trump sees himself as a moderate, so anything short of racist dog-whistles and not raising taxes on billionaires and large corporations will get Biden labelled a Communist.

Trump took most of the Confederacy, the Civil War border states and upper North-Midwest. In other words, those areas that spawn White Power groups and have a nasty history of treatment towards minorities. His strength in other areas of the country was in the rural areas, not metropolitan, and he slipped among suburban women.

Jerry: You're a dinosaur leftist. Your ideology is bankrupt, out of date, and is rejected by the vast majority of Americans. You can't see people; you see race and argue backwards from there. Check the date on your computer; it says 2020 not 1860 or even 1960.

You're welcome to viewing things like you do and I'm welcome to calling it out for the neanderthal thinking that it is.