The First Shot

[Charles Collins]

   You make an excellent point with respect to viewing the Zapruder Film at real speed. People look at the Z Film frame-by-frame and lose track of how quickly everything happened. Basically, the frame-by-frame viewer loses "context".

Exactly, and I am sometimes as guilty of this as anyone else might be. But I have learned each time it happened and am less prone to this these days compared to the past.

[Royell Storing]

Because it's a scientific fact that it takes most people about a second to consciously react to an unexpected loud sound, and because photos and films, unlike human beings, don't tend to have faulty memories of sudden and traumatic events.

   Please Post the EVIDENCE that supports your claiming, "....it's a SCIENTIFIC FACT that it takes MOST people ABOUT a second to consciously react to an unexpected loud sound.......". The generalizations, "Most" and "About", do Not sound "Scientific".

[Zeon Mason]

LN 3 shot sequence proposals have serious problems imo.

A. Andrew Masons Z190ish 1st shot proposal has the problem that it’s too early to Z223.  Thus it is NOT the 1….,2.3 pattern that 2/3rds majority of witness heard. So Andrew tries to resolve this problem by claiming that JFK was HIT  by the Z190 shot and that what we see in the Z film sequence from Z223-Z227 is NOT the SBT shot going thru JFKs body and hitting JC. Instead, Andrew suggests that the JC movement  at Z224-227 is simply a reaction by JC to having HEARD the  Z190 shot. The 2nd shot then is hitting JC around Z275-285? Which shot has causes JC to lean back because he is feeling the effect of the bullet immediately?

To accept this proposal, one has to accept that JFKs body would not immediately  move upon impact of a  6.5mm bullet traveling at 2000 ft/sec impacting  him in the back and exiting his throat until at least 1 second longer after that impact.

One also must accept that the TSBD shooter was able to fire over the slumping (towards Jackie ) JFK body to hit JC in his middle right side of his back with 2nd shot fired somewhere in the vicinity of Z275-z285?

What about the JC wrist wound? How and when does that happen? How does the 2nd bullet  fired at Z-275-285 go thru JCs right wrist bone and then hit JC in his right side back? Or vic versa, how does JC get hit in the right side back and the bullet then exited to hit his right wrist? It’s not apparent where JCs right hand and hat were located from Z 275-z285 or how the right hand wrist wound lines up with the wound in JCs back , relative to a trajectory from TSBD in this Z275-Z285 range.


I’m not a physics expert, but I understand the basic principle of F=MA and that a moving mass hitting another stationary mass immediately transfers momentum from the 1st mass to the 2nd. I’m also aware of elastic vs inelastic collisions but I’m not certain about a rigid  moving mass  impacting a more elastic mass like that of a composite mass of human muscle, water and bone matter.

So I would have to see some physics experiment   that fires the MC type  6.5mm bullet at 2000ft/ sec into a composite mass replicating the human body to determine if it is possible that the body would not move instantly on impact. Perhaps a very specific path from the upper back thru the throat would produce ( or not) a less perceptual  ( by normal eye) a minimal movement of the body. Thus the nervous system reaction of JFK 1 sec later at Z223 could be an explanation for JFKs “lurch” forward and his hands to throat.

B. Tom’s Z124 first shot proposal that completely missed the JFK limo🙄? Why would the TSBD shooter stand up and attempt to shoot downward thru a very narrowed gap of the SN window? The boxes arranged in the SN suggest the shooters plan was to sit on the box next to the pipes and keep his body out of LOS as the JFK limo approached towards the TSBD on Houston st.
 
The box on the window ledge and the other 2 boxes stacked behind it suggest the shooter was going to simply lean over and rest his rifle on top of the stacked boxes and wait to shoot at the JFK limo only after it had passed by the window and when it was heading down Elm st.

The fact that the Hughes film shows no body visible in the SN window is supporting evidence for idea that the shooter was sitting on the box by the pipes thus keeping his body out of LOS of Hughes camera angle.
 
Oswald was a trained USMC combat rifleman. That’s not something to casually dismiss. Would such a trained person who has been trained to control himself while firing a rifle, go suddenly crazy and attempt a wild early 1st shot that was so badly aimed that it completely missed the entire limo?

Perhaps the shooter was someone other than Oswald, who was NOT trained? Huh? Jack Dougherty? He doesn’t have an alibi. Roy Truly implied that Jack could get excited and confused very easily. But what was Jacks motive? And what evidence ( besides the unverified west elevator ride from 5th to 1st floor that Jack claimed he was on) ?

So if this early Z124 1st shot theory has any chance to be plausible, a more plausible explanation for an early complete missed 1st shot might be that it was an ACCIDENTAL squeezing of the trigger AS the shooter was beginning to lean over from his seated position on the box in order to position his rifle on the top of the stacked boxes. The angle of the rifle at that point could have been more horizontal as the bullet was fired , thus not yet aimed at the limo. The bullet was lost somewhere in Dealey plaza possibly buried in ground somewhere never to be discovered.

However, even if an accidental firing is the answer, there’s no way to reconcile this early 1st shot at Z 124 with what most witnesses heard (most importantly Harold Norman ) that the 3 shots were heard in rapid succession in 4-6 seconds of time and in the  pattern 1….2..3  of which the last 2 shots were 1-2 secs apart.

So Dans 1st shot at Z223 proposal  is still the best one imo, because it does not require any weird physics explanations and it fits fairly well with the reactions of JFK and JC in the Z film at Z 223-227 and Z-313. It preserves the SBT to some degree at least and a 3rd shot 2 secs AFTER Z 313 preserves the 4-6 sec rapid succession pattern of 1…2.3 , which is more consistent with Harold Norman’s perception and also with James Tague that it possibly could have been the 3rd shot which hit the curb.

The 2 main problems I have with Dans proposal are: 1. the Willis girl reaction at Z190-Z200 and 2. the question why the TSBD shooter would shoot an unaimed 3rd shot 1-2 secs AFTER Z 313?

[Andrew Mason]

LN 3 shot sequence proposals have serious problems imo.

A. Andrew Masons Z190ish 1st shot proposal has the problem that it’s too early to Z223.  Thus it is NOT the 1….,2.3 pattern that 2/3rds majority of witness heard. So Andrew tries to resolve this problem by claiming that JFK was HIT  by the Z190 shot and that what we see in the Z film sequence from Z223-Z227 is NOT the SBT shot going thru JFKs body and hitting JC. Instead, Andrew suggests that the JC movement  at Z224-227 is simply a reaction by JC to having HEARD the  Z190 shot. The 2nd shot then is hitting JC around Z275-285? Which shot has causes JC to lean back because he is feeling the effect of the bullet immediately?

Hickey said he observed the hair on the right side of JFK’s head fly forward at the time he heard the second shot.  That occurs at z273-276.  Nellie said the he recoiled from the second shot.  That movement begins at z271-272. Greer said he turned around for the first tine almost simultaneously with hearing the second shot.  That turn is starting just before z280.  So based on all that, I put the second shot at z271-272. 

A first shot at z193, a second at z271 and a third at z313 fits the 1………2….3 shot spacing recalled by the vast majority of witnesses (4.2 s and 2.3 s) and the total time span of the three shots as most estimated (6.5 s).

I don’t conclude that a first shot occurred at z193 or so to solve a problem of fitting the shot pattern.  I put it there because that is where the witness evidence and the photographic evidence all converges.  The occupants of the VP car and the VP security car, Mary Woodward, Hugh Betzner, Phil Willis, Linda Willis, Mrs. Cabell and numerous witnesses along Elm St. are key.

One also must accept that the TSBD shooter was able to fire over the slumping (towards Jackie ) JFK body to hit JC in his middle right side of his back with 2nd shot fired somewhere in the vicinity of Z275-z285?

Not at all.  By z271 JBC was visible to Dave Powers and to the SN after JFK moved left and a shot to JFK’s right side would have to have struck JBC.

What about the JC wrist wound? How and when does that happen? How does the 2nd bullet  fired at Z-275-285 go thru JCs right wrist bone and then hit JC in his right side back? Or vic versa, how does JC get hit in the right side back and the bullet then exited to hit his right wrist?

?? The second bullet struck JBC in the right armpit, followed his fifth rib, exited below his right nipple, struck the back of his right forearm that was in front of his right chest. The evidence is that this was an irregularly shaped missile that sent numerous fragments into his wrist and deflected up off the radius. A fragment from the second shot struck Tague, according to the evidence. Greer heard a bullet strike something in the car on the second shot.

So I would have to see some physics experiment   that fires the MC type  6.5mm bullet at 2000ft/ sec into a composite mass replicating the human body to determine if it is possible that the body would not move instantly on impact. Perhaps a very specific path from the upper back thru the throat would produce ( or not) a less perceptual  ( by normal eye) a minimal movement of the body. Thus the nervous system reaction of JFK 1 sec later at Z223 could be an explanation for JFKs “lurch” forward and his hands to throat.

Keep in mind that JFK wore a stiffly braced corset that kept his back straight.  The momentum of the bullet would be transferred to the whole body as a result. A 10g bullet at 600 m/s carries 6 kg m/s of momentum. But the bullet did not strike anything solid and likely lost less than 25% of its speed in striking JFK.  A 1.5 kg m/s impulse to a 80 kg body that was free to move would impart a forward speed of 1.5/80 =2 cm/sec or about 1 millimeter per frame.  I would not expect to see that in the zfilm.

[Jarrett Smith]

The best evidence is the Zapruder film, and it shows a 100% degree of accuracy the second shot hit both men at the same time Z-223/224

[Tom Graves]

Please Post the evidence that supports your claiming, "It's a scientific fact that it takes most people about a second to consciously react to an unexpected loud sound."

Dear Comrade Storing,

Brian Roselle and Kenneth Scearce reference several studies on the issue.

Read it and weep, Comrade Storing.

https://d7922adf-f499-4a26-96d4-8ab2d521fa35.usrfiles.com/ugd/d7922a_e280e26982b44f2c97c6e6e27026e385.pdf

-- Tom

[Andrew Mason]

The best evidence is the Zapruder film, and it shows a 100% degree of accuracy the second shot hit both men at the same time Z-223/224

That is your interpretation, not what it shows.  You may be right.  But all it shows is the two men reacting at about the same time (not necessarily beginning their reactions at the same time because JFK was already reacting before his head appears in z225)