The First Shot

[Tom Graves]

Hickey isn’t looking BACK at TSBD until some time AFTER Z207.

Nor are the other SS agents in the follow up car.

It’s certain they all have turned (except Clint Hill) to look back at TSBD at Z255 (Altgens 6 photo).

If Andrew’s Z190 - Z195 1st shot theory is the correct one, then Clint Hill not starting  to jump from the car until Z255 in Altgens photo 6 would mean it took him  about 3 secs to react after HEARING the Z190ish shot.

But if there is a 1.5 sec delay of JFK reacting to the Z190 ish shot then Clint Hill who had his eyes focused on JFK would not SEE the effect of the Z190 shot on JFK until Z220-z224 thus Hill reacted to SEEING  the effect at Z224 in only about 1.5 secs.

But can it be established ( as Andrew proposed) that JFK at Z223-224 has already been hit 1.5 secs earlier and that his lurch forward and hands moving up AT Z223 is a delayed bodily reaction?

Can it be established from Clint Hills WC testimony (and or subsequent interviews years later) that he did NOT experience simultaneously hearing the 1st shot with seeing the effect of the shot causing JFKs lurch forward and hands grabbing his throat?

LOL!

You're so full of beans.

Why is Rosemary Willis looking back towards the TSBD in Z-145 instead of taking advantage of her once-in-a-lifetime opportunity to get a closeup view of JFK and Jackie?

https://assassinationresearch.com/zfilm/z145.jpg

[Zeon Mason]

@Tom: that Z frame in your link has the Willis girl looking towards the JFK.

Any other other Z frames you want to post to prove Willis girl looks back to TSBD before Z190?

[Tom Graves]

@Tom: that Z frame in your link has the Willis girl looking towards the JFK.

Any other Z frames you want to post to prove Willis girl looks back to TSBD before Z190?

Point being?

Regardless, the point I'm making is that she was looking back at the TSBD before Z-145 because she was consciously reacting to Oswald's first, missing-everything, shot at "Z-124."

[Jarrett Smith]

Hickey isn’t looking BACK at TSBD until some time AFTER Z207.

Nor are the other SS agents in the follow up car.

It’s certain they all have turned ( except Clint Hill) to look back at TSBD at Z255 (Altgens 6 photo).

If Andrew’s Z190 - Z195 1st shot theory is the correct one, then Clint Hill not starting  to jump from the car until Z255 in Altgens photo 6 would mean it took him  about 3 secs to react after HEARING the Z190ish shot.

But if there is a 1.5 sec delay of JFK reacting to the Z190 ish shot then Clint Hill who had his eyes focused on JFK would not SEE the effect of the Z190 shot on JFK until Z220-z224 thus Hill reacted to SEEING  the effect at Z224 in only about 1.5 secs.

But can it be established ( as Andrew proposed) that JFK at Z223-224 has already been hit 1.5 secs earlier and that his lurch forward and hands moving up AT Z223 is a delayed bodily reaction?

Can it be established from Clint Hills WC testimony (and or subsequent interviews years later) that he did NOT experience simultaneously hearing the 1st shot with seeing the effect of the shot causing JFKs lurch forward and hands grabbing his throat?

Clint Hill did not jump off the car till after JFK was shot in the head. His testimony to the WC was incorrect.

Mr. HILL. Well, as we came out of the curve, and began to straighten up, I was viewing the area which looked to be a park. There were people scattered throughout the entire park. And I heard a noise from my right rear, which to me seemed to be a firecracker. I immediately looked to my right and, in so doing, my eyes had to cross the Presidential limousine and I saw President Kennedy grab at himself and lurch forward and to the left.
Mr. SPECTER. Why don't you just proceed, in narrative form, to tell us?
Representative BOGGS. This was the first shot?
Mr. HILL. This is the first sound that I heard; yes, sir. I jumped from the car, realizing that something was wrong, ran to the Presidential limousine. Just about as I reached it, there was another sound, which was different than the first sound. I think I described it in my statement as though someone was shooting a revolver into a hard object--it seemed to have some type of an echo. I put my right foot, I believe it was, on the left rear step of the automobile, and I had a hold of the handgrip with my hand, when the car lurched forward. I lost my footing and I had to run about three or four more steps before I could get back up in the car.

[Zeon Mason]

Point being?

Regardless, the point I'm making is that she was looking back at the TSBD before Z-145 because she was consciously reacting to Oswald's first, missing-everything, shot at "Z-124."

Point  being that you have not proved your statement previous to your above post that Rosemary Willis was looking  back at TSBD at Z145.

Nor have you proved that Rosemary Willis was looking back at TSBD at Z124 nor that if she was,  that it was due to hearing a shot at Z124.

Now you might be able to find film footage showing more clearly  Rosemary Willis as she runs around the curved sidewalk at the corner of Elm st and Houston st. However, if  her head is  turned towards  TSBD , it was because she was keeping her eye on  the JFK limo as it turned the corner simultaneously as Willis was running around the curved sidewalk right beside the limo.

Willis  herself stated in a recorded interview  that she had her eyes on JFK the ENTIRE time she was running. Therefore , if her head was turned towards TSBD earlier at Z124 , it is because the JFK limo was passing by the TSBD entrance (as recorded in the Towner film) at the same time as Willis was keeping her eye on JFK as she ran around the curved sidewalk.

And the  Z film frame where Rosemary Willis has  stopped running and she has turned her head towards TSBD is  approx at Z-200.

What other witnesses statements are there that even remotely support a first shot fired at Z124?

The significance of 2/3rds majority of witnesses who estimated hearing 3 shots fired in a span of only 4-6 seconds with the last 2 shots being literally “back to back”  is enough in itself  to discount a 1st shot at Z 124. Let alone that  so far in this thread there has been no proof as yet posted to prove a Z-124 shot.

[Tom Graves]

You have not proved your statement previous to your above post that Rosemary Willis was looking back at TSBD at Z145.

Do you think she was looking at JFK and Jackie at Z-145?
https://assassinationresearch.com/zfilm/z145.jpg

Nor have you proved that Rosemary Willis was looking back at TSBD at Z124, ...

What a ridiculous statement.

I never said that she was.

How would I or anyone know what she was looking at half-a-second before Zapruder resumed filming after a 17-second pause?

... nor that if she was, it was due to her hearing a shot at Z124.

That's another ridiculous statement for two reasons:

1) See above.

2) I takes most people half-a-second to a second to consciously look in the direction of a loud noise.

Willis, herself stated in a recorded interview that she had her eyes on JFK the entire time she was running. Therefore, if her head was turned towards TSBD earlier at Z124, it is because the JFK limo was passing by the TSBD entrance (as recorded in the Towner film) at the same time as Willis was keeping her eye on JFK as she ran around the curved sidewalk.

Given the fact that it takes most people half-a-second to a second to consciously look in the direction of a loud noise, and given the fact that we don't know what Rosemary was doing or looking at half-a-second before Zapruder resumed filming at Z-133, for purposes of our conversation it doesn't matter what Rosemary was-or-was-not looking at half-a-second earlier at hypothetical "Z-124" -- but it's safe to assume that at that time she was either 1) standing and looking at JFK and Jackie, 2) already running and looking at JFK and Jackie, or 3) running and not looking at JFK and Jackie.

It looks to me as thought she was running and looking at JFK and Jackie in Z-133.
https://assassinationresearch.com/zfilm/z133.jpg

The important thing for purposes of our conversation is that about half-a-second after Z-133, Rosemary Willis was no longer looking at JFK and Jackie but looking back in the direction of the TSBD.
https://assassinationresearch.com/zfilm/z145.jpg

The Z film frame where Rosemary Willis has stopped running and has turned her head towards TSBD is approximately Z-200.

It doesn't matter if she was standing still or still running in Z-145 -- she was looking back towards the TSBD, not at JFK and Jackie in front of her.

What other witnesses statements are there that even remotely support a first shot fired at "Z-124"?

There are several.

Why don't you look into it?

The significance of 2/3rds majority of witnesses who estimated hearing 3 shots fired in a span of only 4-6 seconds with the last 2 shots being literally “back-to-back” is enough in itself to discount a 1st shot at "Z-124." Not to mention that so far in this thread, there has been no proof as yet posted to prove a "Z-124" shot.

Dealey Plaza is an echo chamber.

Startled and traumatized witnesses are even worse than non-startled / non-traumatized witnesses to a fast-moving, unexpected event. 

[Dan O'meara]

Do you think she was looking at JFK and Jackie at Z-145?
https://assassinationresearch.com/zfilm/z145.jpg

What a ridiculous statement.

I never said that she was.

How would I or anyone know what she was looking at half-a-second before Zapruder resumed filming after a 17-second pause?

That's another ridiculous statement for two reasons:

1) See above.

2) I takes most people half-a-second to a second to consciously look in the direction of a loud noise.


Given the fact that it takes most people half-a-second to a second to consciously look in the direction of a loud noise, and given the fact that we don't know what Rosemary was doing or looking at half-a-second before Zapruder resumed filming at Z-133, for purposes of our conversation it doesn't matter what Rosemary was-or-was-not looking at half-a-second earlier at hypothetical "Z-124" -- but it's safe to assume that at that time she was either 1) standing and looking at JFK and Jackie, 2) already running and looking at JFK and Jackie, or 3) running and not looking at JFK and Jackie.

It looks to me as thought she was running and looking at JFK and Jackie in Z-133.
https://assassinationresearch.com/zfilm/z133.jpg

The important thing for purposes of our conversation is that about half-a-second after Z-133, Rosemary Willis was no longer looking at JFK and Jackie but looking back in the direction of the TSBD.
https://assassinationresearch.com/zfilm/z145.jpg

It doesn't matter if she was standing still or still running in Z-145 -- she was looking back towards the TSBD, not at JFK and Jackie in front of her.

There are several.

Why don't you look into it?

Dealey Plaza is an echo chamber.

Startled and traumatized witnesses are even worse than non-startled / non-traumatized witnesses to a fast-moving, unexpected event.

The idea that this little girl was responding to the "explosion" of the first shot, while a car full of Secret Service agents don't respond to, is as buffoonish as  everything else you post,
Hickey, Landis and Ready state that their immediate response to the first shot was to look to their right and rear, in the direction of the TSBD building. We see these agents until frame z207 in the Z-film and they show no such response.
However, in Altgens 6 )equivalent to z255) we see them responding exactly as they said they did, all three looking to their right rear.

Do some research and stop making a fool of yourself.

[Tom Graves]

The idea that this little girl was responding to the "explosion" of the first shot, while a car full of Secret Service agents don't respond to, is as buffoonish as everything else you post. Hickey, Landis and Ready stated that their immediate response to the first shot was to look to their right and rear, in the direction of the TSBD building. We see these agents until frame z207 in the Z-film and they show no such response. However, in Altgens-6 (equivalent to Z-255) we see them responding exactly as they said they did, all three looking to their right rear.

Dear danny BOY o'meara,

They probably thought Oswald's first, missing-everything, first shot (at "Z-124") was a firecracker, a backfire, a tire blowout, a distant thunderclap, or a last-call-for-alcohol at The Cellar and therefore mistakenly thought Oswald's second shot (at about Z-222) was his first shot.

I think that Oswald's first, missing-everything, shot was a second later than Max Holland does, but what he wrote about Altgens-6 in 2014 still applies:

Altgens' photo is equivalent to Zapruder frame 255, about two seconds after Oswald fired the second shot. The president can be seen reaching for his neck, where the bullet exited, with First Lady Jacqueline Kennedy's white-gloved hand supporting his left arm. Connally's head is turned 90 degrees, the same bullet having just penetrated his torso. Most spectators are still oblivious to what is happening. Only the police motorcyclists and the Secret Servicemen on the "Queen Mary" follow-up car are reacting to the moment. Three of the eight agents riding in the car — Jack Ready, Paul Landis and George Hickey — have turned their heads toward the source of the shot, while Clint Hill and William McIntyre are in the process of doing so, although Hill would never complete the motion. Seeing that the president was in distress, he leaped from the running board in a futile effort to cover the president's body with his own. Juxtapose Altgens' picture with frame 153 from the Zapruder film, taken an estimated two seconds after the traffic arm mast deflected the first shot. There is no sign of distress in the presidential limousine, and the spectators show no signs of concern. But look again at the Queen Mary. Though not all eight agents can be seen clearly, at least three of them — Ready, Hickey and Glen Bennett — are reacting to some unnatural stimulus. Ready's head is turned sharply to his left, although normal protocol called for him, as the president's body man, to keep his eyes on the quadrant to his right. Hickey, seated on the driver's side of the rear bench seat, is already rising and leaning over far to his left; in his statement, he said he thought someone had thrown a firecracker at the motorcade. Most telling, however, is the movement of Bennett. He can barely be glimpsed leaning to his right, straining to see around presidential aide Dave Powers and Secret Service agent Emory Roberts, seated directly in front of him. He was trying to "look at the Boss's car," he wrote in notes he jotted down while en route back to Washington, D.C., after the shooting. He saw Kennedy struck in the back by the second shot, and then in the head by the third bullet.

https://www.newsweek.com/2014/11/28/truth-behind-jfks-assassination-285653.html


-- Tom