Users Currently Browsing This Topic:
0 Members

Author Topic: Getting Some Facts Straight About the Single-Bullet Theory  (Read 17223 times)

Offline Bill Chapman

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6513
Re: Getting Some Facts Straight About the Single-Bullet Theory
« Reply #56 on: July 20, 2020, 09:07:55 PM »
Advertisement
Nobody has to 'say so'
The pictures already did

JFK Assassination Forum

Re: Getting Some Facts Straight About the Single-Bullet Theory
« Reply #56 on: July 20, 2020, 09:07:55 PM »


Offline Michael T. Griffith

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 926
Re: Getting Some Facts Straight About the Single-Bullet Theory
« Reply #57 on: July 26, 2020, 01:48:45 PM »
Another severe problem for the single-bullet theory is that the 1968 Clark Panel found several bullet fragments in the neck on the neck x-ray, “just to the right” of C-6/C-7:

Quote
Subcutaneous emphysema is present just to the right of the cervical spine immediately above the apex of the right lung. Also several small metallic fragments are present in this region. (p. 13)

“Immediately above the apex of the right lung” and “just to the right of the cervical spine” is just to the right of C-6/C-7. The subcutaneous emphysema to the right of C-6/C-7 would have been caused by significant trauma to the area, which would help explain the presence of fragments in the same area.

If there were fragments in the neck region, the SBT is false, since obviously those fragments could not have come from CE 399, the alleged magic bullet.

The HSCA forensic pathology panel (FPP) said that all the fragments identified by the Clark Panel in the neck x-ray were artifacts. But Jerrol Custer, who was the x-ray technician at the autopsy, told the ARRB that he was certain that the x-rays he took of the neck showed numerous bullet fragments in the neck.

Dr. John Lattimer (MD), a favorite “expert” among lone-gunman theorists, said in 1972 that the Clark Panel was correct, that there were metal fragments near JFK’s spine to the right of C-6/C-7. Two years later, Lattimer decided that the fragments were bone, not metal. Three years after that, he repeated his conclusion that the fragments were bone.

But bone fragments in the neck are also a serious problem for the SBT. If the fragments were bone, this would mean the bullet grazed the spine and chipped off several fragments from it, which certainly would have caused the bullet to pitch and yaw, if not tumble, making it impossible for the bullet to create the small, neat circular hole in the neck described by the Dallas doctors and nurses.

Bone fragments in the neck are also a crushing blow to the neuromuscular-reaction theory for JFK’s backward head snap. This theory requires an undamaged spinal cord in order for the neural signals to be complete and to be sent as rapidly as possible to produce the alleged neurospasm. Obviously, a spinal cord in a spine that has been grazed by a bullet and has had several fragments chipped off will not be able to facilitate
 massive--and lightning-fast--neuromuscular reaction.

Although the HSCA FPP said that all the apparent fragments in the neck x-ray were artifacts, it also said that the T-1 transverse process was fractured (7 HSCA 93) and that “there are significant muscle masses attached to the vertebrae which would receive tremendous shock, even if several inches distant” from the bullet path (7 HSCA 171). So clearly, whether you go with the Clark Panel or the FPP, JFK’s spinal cord was in no condition to allow a massive neuromuscular reaction.




« Last Edit: July 26, 2020, 02:36:23 PM by Michael T. Griffith »

Offline Jack Nessan

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 935
Re: Getting Some Facts Straight About the Single-Bullet Theory
« Reply #58 on: July 26, 2020, 03:42:02 PM »
SBT provides the only explanation for the wound to Gov Connally. The wound in his back can only have resulted from a bullet passing through JFK.

Nelly, Jackie, Bill Newman, DPD Hargis, all reference the wounding of Gov Connally by the first shot.


Mr. SAWYER. If we were to start at the other end then and assume that a bullet were fired at the approximate time we have determined from the sixth floor of the depository, would it have of necessity given the wounds in the President, would it of necessity, based on what you have determined as to locations somewhat, also have hit Governor Connally?
Mr. CANNING. The bullet would have had to have been substantially deflected by passing through the President in order to miss the Governor. It seems almost inevitable that the Governor would be hit with the alinements that we have found.
Mr. SAWYER. So that if we assume, as apparently is the fact, that this jacketed bullet did not hit anything solid in the way of bone in the President but only traversed the soft tissue of the neck, and presuming the approximate location of the limousine at the time and the posture as nearly as can be determined of the President at that time, that in your view then, absent a deflection of that bullet, it could not have missed Governor Connally.
Mr. CANNING. That is my view, yes.

Mr. SAWYER. I think that is all. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. DEVINE. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Canning, I am extremely impressed with your testimony, the logic, the studies you have made, particularly since you have conducted and supervised research on the flight of trajectory and stability of high speed projectiles or missiles.
I would ask one question on your margin of error that you provided on that Texas School Book Depository that is partially covered.
One has a yellow circle. One has the red circle. In all of those margins of error that you have demonstrated, the window, the key window, in the Texas Depository is always included, isn't it?
Mr. CANNING. Yes.
Mr. DEVINE. So you do not exclude that in any of your--
Mr. CANNING. No.
Mr. DEVINE. Based on--you are classified of course as an expert in your field as an engineer.
And on the trajectory studies, would you say that your studies would reveal that it is consistent that there may have been a single shot that went through the President's neck and through the body of Governor Connally?
Mr. CANNING. I am confident that that is in fact the case.

Mr. DEVINE. You are positive?
Mr. CANNING. Well, positive is a very strong word.
Mr. DEVINE. I understand. But it is totally consistent with your studies; is that correct?
Mr. CANNING. Yes, it is.

Mr. DEVINE. Thank you very much.

JFK Assassination Forum

Re: Getting Some Facts Straight About the Single-Bullet Theory
« Reply #58 on: July 26, 2020, 03:42:02 PM »


Offline Michael T. Griffith

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 926
Re: Getting Some Facts Straight About the Single-Bullet Theory
« Reply #59 on: July 26, 2020, 05:22:41 PM »
SBT provides the only explanation for the wound to Gov Connally. The wound in his back can only have resulted from a bullet passing through JFK.

That's your answer to the forensic evidence from the x-rays cited by the Clark Panel? Just repeat the same old timeworn, debunked claims? Do explain how a bullet could have chipped the spine and/or deposited a trail of fragments if that bullet was CE 399. You can't do it.

I take it you did not read the OP? The SBT is impossible because there was no path from the back wound to the throat wound without smashing through the spine, because the "holes" in the front of the shirt are slits made by nurses, because the nick on tie knot was not on the edge of the knot, because the WC's own ballistics tests produced bullets that were far more deformed than CE 399, etc., etc., etc. Go read the OP.


Nelly, Jackie, Bill Newman, DPD Hargis, all reference the wounding of Gov Connally by the first shot.

This is just nonsense. Nellie and her husband both swore up and down that they heard the first shot before Connally was hit. Connally himself said he was not hit before Z234, and he's the guy who experienced it and who knew his body better than anyone else. But you guys just keep ignoring this fact. The guy who was hit survived. He felt the hit. He experienced. After viewing high-quality blowups of the Zapruder film, he insisted he was not hit before Z234.

Mr. SAWYER. If we were to start at the other end then and assume that a bullet were fired at the approximate time we have determined from the sixth floor of the depository, would it have of necessity given the wounds in the President, would it of necessity, based on what you have determined as to locations somewhat, also have hit Governor Connally?
Mr. CANNING. The bullet would have had to have been substantially deflected by passing through the President in order to miss the Governor. It seems almost inevitable that the Governor would be hit with the alinements that we have found.
Mr. SAWYER. So that if we assume, as apparently is the fact, that this jacketed bullet did not hit anything solid in the way of bone in the President but only traversed the soft tissue of the neck, and presuming the approximate location of the limousine at the time and the posture as nearly as can be determined of the President at that time, that in your view then, absent a deflection of that bullet, it could not have missed Governor Connally.
Mr. CANNING. That is my view, yes.

Mr. SAWYER. I think that is all. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. DEVINE. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Canning, I am extremely impressed with your testimony, the logic, the studies you have made, particularly since you have conducted and supervised research on the flight of trajectory and stability of high speed projectiles or missiles.
I would ask one question on your margin of error that you provided on that Texas School Book Depository that is partially covered.
One has a yellow circle. One has the red circle. In all of those margins of error that you have demonstrated, the window, the key window, in the Texas Depository is always included, isn't it?
Mr. CANNING. Yes.
Mr. DEVINE. So you do not exclude that in any of your--
Mr. CANNING. No.
Mr. DEVINE. Based on--you are classified of course as an expert in your field as an engineer.
And on the trajectory studies, would you say that your studies would reveal that it is consistent that there may have been a single shot that went through the President's neck and through the body of Governor Connally?
Mr. CANNING. I am confident that that is in fact the case.

Mr. DEVINE. You are positive?
Mr. CANNING. Well, positive is a very strong word.
Mr. DEVINE. I understand. But it is totally consistent with your studies; is that correct?
Mr. CANNING. Yes, it is.

Mr. DEVINE. Thank you very much.

More abject nonsense. Sheesh, this goop was debunked years ago. As many scholars have pointed out, Canning ignored the HSCA FPP's placement and description of the back wound, and even then he had to fiddle with reality to get his reconstruction to "work." Go look at his model trajectory. It's ridiculous. It bears no resemblance to Kennedy's position at the time of the first hit.

This is what is so frustrating about dealing with lone-gunman theorists. You seem to be stuck in a time warp. You simply ignore all the research done over the last 30 years that has destroyed the single-bullet theory.


« Last Edit: July 26, 2020, 05:34:42 PM by Michael T. Griffith »

Offline Jerry Organ

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2310
Re: Getting Some Facts Straight About the Single-Bullet Theory
« Reply #60 on: July 26, 2020, 10:25:50 PM »
That's your answer to the forensic evidence from the x-rays cited by the Clark Panel? Just repeat the same old timeworn, debunked claims? Do explain how a bullet could have chipped the spine and/or deposited a trail of fragments if that bullet was CE 399. You can't do it.

The "fragments" were artifacts. The spine wasn't struck. I have proven this for myself with high-poly 3D models. I can see how it passed between and very close to the right-side C7 and T1 transverse processes. It was the judgment of the HSCA that the T1 process suffered a non-displaced hairline fracture possibly caused by pressure from the missile channel (ie: the temporary cavity of a bullet in soft tissue).

Quote
I take it you did not read the OP? The SBT is impossible because there was no path from the back wound to the throat wound without smashing through the spine,

Really? What sort of modelling is that claim based on?

Quote
because the "holes" in the front of the shirt are slits made by nurses,

Sure.You believe a whole bunch of things, don't you?

Quote
because the nick on tie knot was not on the edge of the knot, because the WC's own ballistics tests produced bullets that were far more deformed than CE 399, etc., etc., etc. Go read the OP.

The Commission found that bullets striking hard tissue nose-on at full velocity would deform, mushroom, etc. No comparable large fragments were found in the wrist wound (and the governor's radius had no "hole" through it like the Commission's test bones), so the theory developed that the bullet that struck the wrist was probably tumbling and had lost velocity. As the years went by, the theory was proven with ballistics tests such as those done by Dr. Lattimer, the 2009 show "JFK: Inside the Target Car" and the 2013 show "Cold Case JFK".

The critics haven't done anything as professional and scientific, unless you count some rednecks firing bullets into a cow bone and holding up the mushroomed remnants of the bullet.

Quote
This is just nonsense. Nellie and her husband both swore up and down that they heard the first shot before Connally was hit. Connally himself said he was not hit before Z234, and he's the guy who experienced it and who knew his body better than anyone else. But you guys just keep ignoring this fact. The guy who was hit survived. He felt the hit. He experienced. After viewing high-quality blowups of the Zapruder film, he insisted he was not hit before Z234.

Connally was hit on the second shot. Nellie thought Kennedy was "reacting" to being hit on the first shot. She often references the President reaching for his throat, but he does that within the same second as Connally's jacket pluck and right hand springing up.

I don't know why Connally (or for that matter, the staff people and photographers at LIFE magazine, or Josiah Thompson), with the best-quality frames available, didn't spot the jacket pluck. It wasn't noticed until a few years later, and might have influenced Connally's judgment on what area of the film he was first struck.

Instead Connally thought the shoulder drop and mouth opening in the Z233-235 area was the first sign he had been hit.

     

Thompson had something similar in his book "Six Seconds in Dallas." But he was more influenced by the dramatic shoulder collapse at Z237/238.

    "One could not be faulted for locating the impact in the interval
     Z234-238, with the emphasis on the last two frames."

Thompson back-projected the trajectory based on the Governor's position when Thompson felt he was struck:

    "From his perch on the roof of a Houston Street building he
     had a perfect view of the car as it moved down Elm Street.
     Following it in his sights, he waited until it approached the
     Stemmons Freeway sign, and then, the sound of the first
     shot ringing in his ears, he fired--wounding the Governor."

Quote
More abject nonsense. Sheesh, this goop was debunked years ago. As many scholars have pointed out, Canning ignored the HSCA FPP's placement and description of the back wound, and even then he had to fiddle with reality to get his reconstruction to "work." Go look at his model trajectory. It's ridiculous. It bears no resemblance to Kennedy's position at the time of the first hit.



Canning used the frame Z190 based on the
(later disproven) acoustics evidence.
 

"No resemblance"?



Is the exaggeration a Southern thing?

Quote
This is what is so frustrating about dealing with lone-gunman theorists. You seem to be stuck in a time warp. You simply ignore all the research done over the last 30 years that has destroyed the single-bullet theory.
« Last Edit: July 26, 2020, 11:13:55 PM by Jerry Organ »

JFK Assassination Forum

Re: Getting Some Facts Straight About the Single-Bullet Theory
« Reply #60 on: July 26, 2020, 10:25:50 PM »


Offline Michael T. Griffith

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 926
Re: Getting Some Facts Straight About the Single-Bullet Theory
« Reply #61 on: July 27, 2020, 02:22:17 AM »
I discuss Thomas Canning's trajectory analysis in my article "Ten Reasons I Reject the Single-Bullet Theory":

Quote
It is perhaps revealing that the HSCA's trajectory expert, Dr. Thomas Canning, was only able to make the single-bullet theory's vertical trajectory work in part by essentially ignoring the location and nature of the back wound documented by the committee's pathology panel (see 1 HSCA 190-192). Canning also admitted the trajectory through Kennedy's neck did not match up with the trajectory from Kennedy's neck to Connally's back, though he attributed this to "experimental error" and opined that the trajectories were within a "reasonable" margin of variance:

"Yes, those two angles are different. The line of sight that one obtains by using Governor Connally's back wound and President Kennedy's neck wound is slightly different from the angle which is determined by using the President's wounds alone. . . .

"What I am saying is that our interpretation of the data tells us that if we were to determine one trajectory based on the two pieces of information, one the Governor's wound, and the President's neck wound, that that will give us one line. The other wound, the other wound pair in the President, will give us a second line. Those two lines do not coincide simply because of experimental error." (1 HSCA 191)


To be fair to Canning, it should be mentioned that after he testified at the HSCA's hearings, Canning wrote a letter to the HSCA's chief counsel, G. Robert Blakey, in which he complained that he had had trouble getting accurate, consistent information on the locations of the wounds:

"The most frustrating problem for me was to get quantitative data—and even consistent descriptions—from the forensic pathologists."
 
Canning added that his study of the photographic record had revealed major discrepancies in the Warren Commission's findings:

"When I was asked to participate in analysis of the physical evidence regarding the assassination of John Kennedy, I welcomed the opportunity to help set the record straight. I did not anticipate that study of the photographic record of itself would reveal major discrepancies in the Warren Commission findings. Such has turned out to be the case." (Letter from Thomas Canning to G. Robert Blakey, January 5, 1978)  (https://miketgriffith.com/files/10reasons.htm)

WC apologists can post all the trajectory diagrams they want, but those diagrams not only disagree among themselves but they ignore the fact that we learned in the 1990s from ARRB interviews and released documents that the autopsy doctors determined for an absolute certainty that the back wound had no exit point. We have testimony from medical personnel who viewed the autopsy that they could see with their own eyes that the back wound had no exit point. They could see the probe pushing against the lining of the chest cavity. The fact that the autopsy doctors found that the back wound had no exit point was one of the main reasons that Humes burned his autopsy notes and the first draft of the autopsy report, a shocking breach of procedure in a medical-legal autopsy.

Besides, we have the hard physical evidence of the holes in the back of the coat and the shirt, which prove that the back wound was too low for the SBT. All WC apologists can do is offer their ridiculous, timeworn "bunched-clothing" theory, despite the fact that no photo or film of JFK taken around the time of the first shot shows his jacket even remotely bunched enough, and bunched in the right location, to account for the rear clothing holes.

This is a prime example of a group of people who are so emotionally committed to the lone-gunman theory that they simply cannot deal with clear contrary evidence in a rational, plausible manner.
« Last Edit: July 27, 2020, 02:33:48 AM by Michael T. Griffith »

Offline Tim Nickerson

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1824
Re: Getting Some Facts Straight About the Single-Bullet Theory
« Reply #62 on: July 27, 2020, 04:06:50 AM »
WC apologists can post all the trajectory diagrams they want, but those diagrams not only disagree among themselves but they ignore the fact that we learned in the 1990s from ARRB interviews and released documents that the autopsy doctors determined for an absolute certainty that the back wound had no exit point.

That is a falsehood. Are you aware of the biblical strictures against lying?

JFK Assassination Forum

Re: Getting Some Facts Straight About the Single-Bullet Theory
« Reply #62 on: July 27, 2020, 04:06:50 AM »


Offline Jack Nessan

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 935
Re: Getting Some Facts Straight About the Single-Bullet Theory
« Reply #63 on: July 27, 2020, 03:21:49 PM »
That's your answer to the forensic evidence from the x-rays cited by the Clark Panel? Just repeat the same old timeworn, debunked claims? Do explain how a bullet could have chipped the spine and/or deposited a trail of fragments if that bullet was CE 399. You can't do it.

I take it you did not read the OP? The SBT is impossible because there was no path from the back wound to the throat wound without smashing through the spine, because the "holes" in the front of the shirt are slits made by nurses, because the nick on tie knot was not on the edge of the knot, because the WC's own ballistics tests produced bullets that were far more deformed than CE 399, etc., etc., etc. Go read the OP.


This is just nonsense. Nellie and her husband both swore up and down that they heard the first shot before Connally was hit. Connally himself said he was not hit before Z234, and he's the guy who experienced it and who knew his body better than anyone else. But you guys just keep ignoring this fact. The guy who was hit survived. He felt the hit. He experienced. After viewing high-quality blowups of the Zapruder film, he insisted he was not hit before Z234.

More abject nonsense. Sheesh, this goop was debunked years ago. As many scholars have pointed out, Canning ignored the HSCA FPP's placement and description of the back wound, and even then he had to fiddle with reality to get his reconstruction to "work." Go look at his model trajectory. It's ridiculous. It bears no resemblance to Kennedy's position at the time of the first hit.

This is what is so frustrating about dealing with lone-gunman theorists. You seem to be stuck in a time warp. You simply ignore all the research done over the last 30 years that has destroyed the single-bullet theory.


All very interesting but understanding the assassination is just not that complicated. The SBT is the only plausible explanation and all the theatrics will not alter that fact.

Gov Connally was struck by the first shot. He said he cried out Oh No No No after he was struck. Nelly and Jackie both independently stated that he cried out Oh No No No after the first shot. JBC stated he only heard two shots which is confirmed by many eyewitnesses who also stated there was only two shots.

Bill Newman in the Jay Watson interview after the assassination: "stated he heard a shot and could not tell which man was hit first."

DPD Bobbi Hargis

Dallas, Nov. 23 (Special) B.W. Hargis, 31, Dallas motorcycle patrolman who was riding in President Kennedy's motorcade, gave this account today of the Assassination:
"We turned left onto Elm St. off Houston, about a half block from where it happened. I was right alongside the rear fender on the left side of the President's car, near Mrs. Kennedy."
"When I heard the first explosion, I knew it was a shot. I thought that Gov. Connally had been hit when I saw him turn toward the President with a real surprised look."
"The President then looked like he was bent over or that he was leaning toward the Governor, talking to him."
"As the President straightened back up, Mrs. Kennedy turned toward him, and that was when he got hit in the side of his head, spinning it around. I was splattered with blood."

--------------------------------

Destroyed? The HSCA studies confirmed the beliefs of the WC.  The only thing destroyed by close examination was The Dictabelt Theory and any concept of there being four shots. Not one thing has been debunked.


Canning completely explained his placement of the wounds and how he derived the trajectory. It is your choice to either believe him or search for someone to shore up your conspiracy beliefs.

--------------------------------------------

No exit wound? Dr. Ebersol discussing the search for the bullet and xrays taken at the autopsy.

'We were asked by the Secret Service agents present to repeat the films and did so Once again there was no evidence of a bullet. I assume you are familiar with portable X ray It is not the kind that gives a fine diagnostic but it is helpful in picking up metallic fragments. It would stand out like a sore thumb either intact or shattered.
The autopsy proceeded and at this point I am simply an observer. Dr. Humes in probing the wound of entrance found it to extend perhaps over the apex of the right lung bruising the pleura and appeared to go toward or near the midline of the lower neck."



" I believe by ten or ten thirty approximately a communication equipment. location had been established with Dallas and it was learned that there had been a wound of exit in the lower neck that had been surgically repaired. I don't know if this was premortem or postmortem but at that point the confusion as far as we were concerned stopped."

---------------------

You were asked to explain how Gov Connally could have been wounded if the bullet does not first pass through JFK. Instead of answering the question you go off on an Interpretive Science rant. It appears it took 30 years for someone to finally confirm your conspiracy dreams by claiming everyone else who studied the evidence was wrong.


You wrote an article about there having been only two shots fired from the 6th floor of the TSBD. It lacks some information but is the right idea. Apparently you no longer believe this to be true? You are the third conspiracy propagator to touch on the idea there was only two shots. Each time, instead of understanding that is the answer and the reality of the assassination, the conclusion is ignored or altered to reach some other conclusion. To me that is amazing especially given the large amount of evidence and witness support all pointing to the two shot conclusion.