Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )

[Alan Ford]

You dare talk about denial while you refuse to explain Lovelady's shirt sleeve in this detailed Altgens pic

Oh but I don't refuse to explain it, Mr O'Meara--------if you'd been paying attention, you'd realize that you're showing me what I believe is a later, doctored version, with necessary 'details' added in. I believe the version Mr Cronkite showed to the American public 11/22/63 was the closest said American public has ever come to seeing what the original looked like. And it shows an unsleeved arm holding a soda bottle---------



---------with said bottle crossing in front of Mr Lovelady's semi-unbuttoned shirt---------



Still waiting for you to explain in detail how Mr Lovelady's posture can possibly be yielding this 'shadow' in Wiegman--------------



Your recent running away from this challenge suggests that this latest 'nothing to see here' claim of yours is going to end no more happily than your previous 'nothing to see here' claim, to wit that Mr Lovelady was 'obviously' in the shadow of the western column!

 

[Alan Ford]

If it makes no difference to you, then why do you keep making absurd claims that Stanton is the Prayer Man, when it's obviously not, by just looking at the size of the figure?

It makes an enormous difference to Mr O'Meara. He knows that Mr Oswald claimed to have gone "outside to watch P. Parade" and he desperately wants that claim not to be true. Hence his irrational hostility to all attempts to explore Mr Oswald's claimed alibi.

As for why he pulls a Doyle by identifying PM as Ms Stanton-----------he's desperate, as Team Keep LHO Away From Them Steps have been desperate since 2013. They don't have a single credible alternative candidate to Mr Oswald. And the more time passes with their still coming up empty, the more glaring their failure becomes.

[Rick Plant]

"Fred claimed the Sarah Stanton/Prayer Man ID had been debunked and I wanted to know about that claim.
I've read through the threads he provided and found that the Stanton ID hasn't been debunked there so that was a wild goose chase (as I expected) But you, with your years of "reading. And reading. And reading", maybe you can point me in the right direction.

A couple of people (including one crackpot that's the laughing stock of the JFK assassination community) latched onto the bogus "Sarah Stanton as Prayer Man" claim because their whole goal was to eliminate Oswald as a candidate out of pure desperation. Their phony theory has been easily debunked because they provided no solid evidence that the Prayer Man is actually Stanton. All they do is make the absurd Stanton claim, and then they attempt to manufacture their own "evidence", but they fail at it each time. Stanton's own relatives debunked their phony claim based on her own physical appearance. Stanton clearly does not match the figure.   

So, where is your 100% positive proof that a man in a photograph is really a 300+ pound woman as you are trying to claim?   

Just for the record, I've never claimed to have "a great deal of knowledge" about this subject, that's a blatant falsehood on your behalf. I've always been modest about being a Newbie and have held my hands up to the rookie mistakes I've made (and will make in the future).

What are you even talking about? When have I ever stated you had a "great deal of knowledge about this subject" or that you didn't?     

As for Prayer Man being a "pointless diversion" - it's not me you need to be telling. I've taken an anti-PM stance because I find something about it unpleasant. I couldn't give a sh$t if it's Stanton on the steps or not. it has no bearing on how I view this whole event but I won't just sit back while being attacked by researchers such as yourself for exploring a possibility."

Obviously you do, because you continue to push this absurd Sarah Stanton as Prayer Man claim with no evidence. How are you being "attacked" Mr. O'Meara? I've asked you to provide proof for your "Sarah Stanton as Prayer Man" claim and you haven't.

You can take whatever stance you want, but when you have zero evidence to prove it as factual, you need to give it up.

Exploring possibilities are fine, but when the evidence is against you, then that's the time to let it go. You're continuing to push a lost cause.   

The Stanton thing is an anti- Prayer Man stance.
I find the rabid mentality displayed by PM zealots is something that needs challenging.
There is zero evidence Oswald was on the steps at the time of the assassination and plenty against.
It makes no difference to me whether it's Stanton, Oswald or Jimmy Hoffa stood in the shadows on the steps.

There's nothing wrong with challenging anybody or anything, in fact I recommend it, but when you have a losing claim like "Sarah Stanton as Prayer Man" you need to let it go and chalk it up as a loss.

Lee Harvey Oswald is not the issue here, it's Sarah Stanton, the 300+ pound woman you are claiming is in the photo instead of the unknown man who was actually photographed.

The figure in question is not Sarah Stanton based on her own testimony, physical appearance, and eye witness accounts.   

[Dan O'meara]

Not sure why you are taking offense at my comment.

You and a couple of others made the false claim that Sarah Stanton is the Prayer Man. One crackpot goes as far to say he has "proven it's Stanton" but can only provide bogus claims for his "so called evidence". When you make a hefty claim as that, you need to provide specific evidence to back up that claim. Not vague references, fabrications, and dismissals as your "evidence".   

Each time I pose a question asking that specific individual how Sarah Stanton was able to be in the Prayer Man position when she was identified on the opposite side, I never get a real answer from that person. I get the same responses as yours, which feigned indignation and my question always is ignored. The reason? That person has no answer to for their failed claim. 

It's a simple question to answer. How was Stanton able to get in the Prayer Man position (as you claim) when she was on the opposite side? All I get is continued obfuscation and no real answer whenever I ask someone who claims Stanton is the Prayer Man.       

Yes, the Sarah Stanton claim has been debunked and I took part in that debunking.

Being a "newbie" has nothing to do with it. You don't even have to know one thing about the assassination. I've asked people that don't know anything about JFK to look at the photo and tell me if they think the Prayer Man is a 300+ pound woman aka Sarah Stanton. They all say "no" and they believe it's a male figure due to the head and receding hairline.

You can explore all the possibilities you want, but you need to back that up with solid evidence, and when that evidence debunks the claim it's time to face the facts that "possibility" is now debunked.         

Now Buell Frazier, Pauline Sanders, and Sarah Stanton herself all place her on the opposite side. Sarah Stanton in her FBI testimony never places herself in the Prayer Man position. Are you going to disregard her testimony?

Obviously you do care because you're very upset over it.

The fact of the matter is, certain people don't want the Prayer Man to be Lee Harvey Oswald, so they use Sarah Stanton as a "stand in" to claim it's not Oswald.

These same people use the "either or" argument. They say it has to either be Oswald or Stanton for their failed claim and they refuse to acknowledge that it can be another unknown person standing there.     

If it makes no difference to you, then why do you keep making absurd claims that Stanton is the Prayer Man, when it's obviously not, by just looking at the size of the figure? The person in the photo is not a 300+ pound woman no matter how hard you try to push for it to be.

And on top of that, Stanton's daughter in law and granddaughter are on audio confirming that Stanton was "huge" at that time. She couldn't get out of the backseat of a car at a funeral because she was so big. That description does not fit the size of the Prayer Man because the Prayer Man in the photo is not "huge" well over 300+ pounds.     

Yeah Rick,
I think you've got the wrong end of the stick.
My reply included a post from ages ago (reply#524) that explained my stance on Stanton.
You seem to have taken it as if it was meant for you personally.
It's not.

[Alan J. Ford]

I think the mystery man was Bill Shelley:

Mr. SHELLEY - Yes; Mr. Truly left me guarding the elevator, not to let anybody up and down the elevator or stairway and some plainclothesmen came in; I don't know whether they were Secret Service or FBI or what but they wanted me to take them upstairs, so we went up and started searching the various floors.

At 12:34PM, Inspector Sawyer's entrance time into the TSBD, let's take Mr. Shelley's stated whereabouts into consideration ---->

Mr. BALL - Do you have any idea how long it was from the time you heard those three sounds or three noises until you saw Truly and Baker going into the building?
Mr. SHELLEY - It would have to be 3 or 4 minutes I would say because this girl that ran back up there was down near where the car was when the President was hit.

So, even if we give him the 12:33 mark instead of the 12:34, the following actions eliminate Mr. Shelley from encountering Inspector Sawyer inside the building at 12:34PM ---->

Mr. BALL - How did you happen to see Truly?
Mr. SHELLEY - We ran out on the island while some of the people that were out watching it from our building were walking back and we turned around and we saw an officer and Truly.
Mr. BALL - And Truly?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yes.
Mr. BALL - Did you see them go into the building?
Mr. SHELLEY - No;

from 12:34PM on, here's an account of Mr. Shelley's actions/whereabouts away from the building, let  alone in the front foyer by the first floor storage room, stairway and passenger elevator ---->

Mr. BALL - What did you and Billy Lovelady do?
Mr. SHELLEY - We walked on down to the first railroad track there on the dead-end street and stood there and watched them searching cars down there in the parking lots for a little while and then we came in through our parking lot at the west end.
Mr. BALL - At the west end?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yes; and then in the side door into the shipping room.

Again, only one TSBD male employee can account for the timing sequence (12:34PM) of coming to Inspector Sawyer's aid; however, because his identity runs counter to the horse manure we have been fed for five decades about a hasty escape to perform a bogus action clear across town at 10th & Patton his identity has to be suppressed from public consumption.

[Alan J. Ford]

Not to mention, given Mr. Shelley's statement ---->

Mr. SHELLEY - Yes; Mr. Truly left me guarding the elevator, not to let anybody up and down the elevator or stairway and some plainclothesmen came in; I don't know whether they were Secret Service or FBI or what but they wanted me to take them upstairs, so we went up and started searching the various floors.

Mr. Shelley knew the difference between a white hat ranked Inspector w/the Dallas Police Department accompanied by a couple of full uniformed dress police officers than his above observation to the contrary (plainclothesmen who could have been Secret Service and/or FBI agents for all he knew.

Again, only one TSBD male employee in that timing sequence (12:34) could account for the actions of Inspector Sawyer's "this man"... the wrongly accused was framed. The wrongly accused did not shoot anybody. Anybody.

*Sidebar: also let's take into account that MUCH time had passed before Roy Truly could have requested Mr. Shelley to watch the elevators and stairs (given Roy Truly was off on a phantom dash up the rear stairs w/Baker, while Mr. Shelley was still down by the railroad parking lot watching activity unfold w/Mr. Lovelady). Soooo, in essence, given their actions/whereabouts, Yes, Roy Truly could have indeed requested Mr. Shelley to watch the elevators after they reengaged at some point in the building, which was looooong after Inspector Sawyer's 12:34PM sojourn upstairs in the passenger elevator courtesy of "This man"...

[Alan J. Ford]

Gentlemen,

Last thought today...make no mistake about it, the wrongly accused was right where he said he was when President Kennedy was ambushed by a bunch of treasonous cowards. After stepping out into the crisp Autumn air to watch the P. parade, he made his way back inside during the immediate aftermath, where he was actually seen in the first floor storage room as others made their way back inside the building.

In their concerted efforts to frame him, all of the key witnesses have been spared cross examination. Roy Truly (nothing truly about him) and Marrion Baker cannot even get their stories straight. One small, yet defining example is the following of many examples...

Baker says in his testimony that he & Roy Truly were atop the roof for between 5 & 10 minutes. Yet Baker claims he saw Inspector Sawyer...

Mr. BAKER - The next thing that I noticed was Inspector Sawyer, he was on one of those floors there, he is a police inspector.
Mr. DULLES - City of Dallas Police?
Mr. BAKER - Yes, sir. And he was on, I really didn't notice which floor he was on, but that is the first thing I saw as we descended how this freight elevator

The problem that presents here for Baker is he cannot profess to be atop the roof w/Roy Truly and yet in the same timing sequence of Inspector Sawyer's brief sojourn upstairs see the Inspector while he is suppose to be atop the roof...

Compare Inspector Sawyer's timeline sequence and note the only way for Baker to have seen him in the short 3 minute possibility is Baker would have to be lying about being atop the roof simultaneously...

Mr. BELIN. You got to the elevator, went up, looked around back there. How long did you spend up there at the top floor that the elevator took you to?
Mr. SAWYER. Just took a quick look around and made sure there was nobody hiding on that floor. I doubt if it took over a minute at the most.
Mr. BELIN. To go up and look around and come down?
Mr. SAWYER. To look around on the floor. How long it took to go up, it couldn't have been over 3 minutes at the most from the time we left, got up and back down.
Mr. BELIN. Then that would put it around no sooner than 12:37, if you heard the call at 12:34?
Mr. SAWYER. Yes, sir.

Note in that brief timing sequence (12:34PM-12:37PM) Baker cannot profess to be atop the roof yet be on his way back down in time to see someone who could have went up and back down again twice in the time Baker supposedly was atop the roof...

Mr. BELIN - In this time sequence you mentioned you were on the roof more than 5 minutes, that could be 25 or 30 or 10 or 15 or what?
Mr. BAKER - This, to my recollection, it seemed like I shouldn't have stayed up there over 10 minutes anyway, if that long.

Yet, he says he saw Inspector Sawyer who only spent a minute checking the 4th floor storage area before returning immediately downstairs.

A highly-skilled defense attorney would have eaten Baker and Roy Truly alive ---->

Mr. BELIN. When did you get over to the southeast corner of the sixth floor?
Mr. TRULY. That I can't answer. I don't remember when I went over there. It was sometime before I learned that they had found either the rifle or the spent shell cases.

My, my, my Freudian slip there. Mr. Truly? Why were you in the sniper's nest before the incriminating evidence was found? Care to elaborate or Cat got your tongue?! Pleading the 5th Roy Truly?!

Again, the wrongly accused was right where he said he was all along. He was framed. It's that simple really. The wrongly accused didn't shoot anybody. Anybody.

*Be well, stay healthy & safe everyone amid the ongoing pandemic challenges we all are facing. 



 

[Rick Plant]

Yeah Rick,
I think you've got the wrong end of the stick.
My reply included a post from ages ago (reply#524) that explained my stance on Stanton.
You seem to have taken it as if it was meant for you personally.
It's not.

Well Dan, members usually don't copy and paste a reply that was addressed to another member from several months ago (October 4, 2020) in their current reply (March 11, 2021) to a different member which has nothing to do with the current discussion. There's no point to that especially when you replied to my post that was directed at Mr. Ford.

And still you haven't answered any of my questions or provided a single shred of evidence for your bogus Sarah Stanton as Prayer Man claim.