Users Currently Browsing This Topic:
0 Members

Author Topic: If Oswald Was The Assassin, Did He Plan His Escape From The TSBD Very Well?  (Read 80758 times)

Offline John Iacoletti

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10812
Advertisement
You've done it again, is there something wrong with you? Do you know you're doing it?
Nowhere have I said the shooting time of 12:30 reflected in the tapes.

This is getting tiresome.  Your exact words:

"The shooting happens at 12:30 and this is totally reflected in the transcripts of the Dallas Police tapes."

If you're trying to make a distinction between "reflected in the tapes" and "reflected in the transcripts of the tapes", then all I can say is that you have a lot of nerve accusing me of nitpicking semantics.

A shooting time of 12:30 is not "reflected in the transcripts of the Dallas Police tapes", ok?

Nor do we know for a fact that the shooting occurred at 12:30.

JFK Assassination Forum


Offline John Iacoletti

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10812
Actually, we don't really know what Garner saw or not. The Stroud letter only tells us that;

"after miss Adams went downstairs she (miss Garner) saw mr Truly and the police man come up."

According to Ernest, Garner told him in 2011 that she did not actually see them enter the stairway, but that she heard them. (The Girl on the Stairs, p. 267)

Offline Michael Walton

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 444



Nor do we know for a fact that the shooting occurred at 12:30.

Really? I beg to differ. Photo here shows 12:30 on the clock mere seconds after the last shot and the car speeding away.

« Last Edit: July 08, 2020, 05:36:08 PM by Michael Walton »

JFK Assassination Forum


Online Martin Weidmann

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7404
Work the timeline back from what is known and trace it back to when they would have left the fourth floor.

The Shelley -Lovelady encounter takes place right before the encounter with the police officer telling them to return to the front of the building. 1 minute is the aprroximate time it took the two women to return to the front steps. The rest is how long does it take to hurry through the building and out of the Houston exit door and go around the corner at the rear of the building. Adams guesstimated 5 minutes total.

Mr. BELIN - Now trying to reconstruct your actions insofar as the time sequence, which we haven't done, what is your best estimate of the time between the time the shots were fired and the time you got back to the building? How much time elapsed? If you have any estimate. Maybe you don't have one.

Miss ADAMS - I would estimate not more than 5 minutes elapsed

That would be the most time. In all likelihood it was much less if it only took 1 minute to return to the front of the building from the encounter with the officer.


Work the timeline back from what is known and trace it back to when they would have left the fourth floor.

If you mean by "what is known" the "encounter" with Shelley and Lovelady then working back the time line from there simply doesn't work.

You have to make up stuff and create a false narrative to fit all the known information in.

The combined testimony of Shelley, Lovelady and Adams establishes beyond a shadow of a doubt that Shelley and Lovelady's path could only have crossed with Adams and Styles path, in or near the end of the dead end street that runs parallel to the TSBD.

The Shelley -Lovelady encounter takes place right before the encounter with the police officer telling them to return to the front of the building.

It is physically impossible for this to have happened, because Shelley and Lovelady were outside at the front and later at the west side of the building until 12.35. There is nothing in their testimony that suggests they came anywhere near the stairs in the north west corner until after the building was sealed off and Shelley was told to watch the elevators.

Sandra Styles entered the building at the front entrance, at 12.35, prior to Vickie Adams, who stuck around to talk with co-workers. She heard the radio broadcast at 12.36 and entered the front entrance of the building.

The rest is how long does it take to hurry through the building and out of the Houston exit door and go around the corner at the rear of the building.

That's a misrepresentation of the facts. The girls did not run through the building, nor did they exit it at Houston street or go around the corner at the rear of the building. You seem to suggest that they actually walked along Houston street towards Elm, which is simply not true.

Mr. BELIN - Now trying to reconstruct your actions insofar as the time sequence, which we haven't done, what is your best estimate of the time between the time the shots were fired and the time you got back to the building? How much time elapsed? If you have any estimate. Maybe you don't have one.

Miss ADAMS - I would estimate not more than 5 minutes elapsed

That would be the most time.


Five minutes would indeed work. The girls came down the stairs at the north west corner of the building, turned left and stepped onto the loading dock. There they walked towards Houston street to go down the only stairs there were to leave the platform. They then ran north and went around the most northern part of the loading dock. From there they ran in westerly direction towards the railroad yard

Mr. BELIN - East is here. East is towards Houston, and west is towards the railroad tracks. You went east or west? Towards the railroad tracks or towards Houston Street?
Miss ADAMS - I went west towards the tracks.
Mr. BELIN - How far west did you go?
Miss ADAMS - I went approximately 2 yards within the tracks and there was an officer standing there, and he said, "Get back to the building." And I said, "But I work here."
And he said, "That is tough, get back." I said, "Well, was the President shot?" And he said, "I don't know. Go back." And I said, "All right."
Mr. BELIN - Then what did you do?
Miss ADAMS - I went back, only I went southwest.
Mr. BELIN - Well, did you come back by way of the street, or did you come back the same entrance you went out?
Miss ADAMS - No, sir.
Mr. BELIN - You went back in through the front entrance, through the front of the building?
Miss ADAMS - Well, I didn't go back in right away.
Mr. BELIN - What did you do then? There is a street that would be a continuation of Elm Street that goes in front of the building, and Elm Street itself angles into the freeway. Did you go back either of those streets?
Miss ADAMS - Yes, sir. I went by the one directly in front of the building.


In all likelihood it was much less if it only took 1 minute to return to the front of the building from the encounter with the officer.

There isn't even a remote possibility that somebody could go round 3 sides of the building in 1 minute.

Your 1 minutes "estimate" is a physical impossibility!

------------------
Quote
Sargeant Harkness sealed the building off at 12:36. The encounter with the police officer maybe even Harkness himself took place at approximately  12:36.

Mr. BELIN - How soon after 12:36 p.m., would you say the building was sealed off?
Mr. HARKNESS - It was sealed off then because I was back there and two other men.
Mr. BELIN - You are talking about the back part of the building?
Mr. HARKNESS - Yes, sir.

Styles and Adams do as they are told by the officer and returned to the front of the building where Styles reenters the building and Adams stays and listens to the police radio.


Harkness was at the back of the building at 12.36. He said so in his testimony. Styles and Adams re-entered the building at the front entrance at 12.35 and 12.36 respectively.

There is no possibility at all that Harkness was the officer told the girls to return to the building. If he had, he wouldn't have allowed the girls to walk to the front of the building!

Quote
-----------------------------------------------

At 12:37 Inspector Sawyer is told the rear of the building is sealed off and has been since 12:36. Sawyer then places two officers at the front entrance to seal off the front of the building. Adams after listening to the police radio is allowed to reenter the building by the two officers on the front steps.

Mr. SAWYER. To look around on the floor. How long it took to go up, it couldn't have been over 3 minutes at the most from the time we left, got up and back down.
Mr. BELIN. Then that would put it around no sooner than 12:37, if you heard the call at 12:34?
Mr. SAWYER. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. Then you got down and what did you do?
Mr. SAWYER. I asked the Sergeant to doublecheck the security around the building, and then I took two patrolmen and stationed them at the front door and told them, with instructions not to let anybody in or out.

----------------------------------------

At 12:37  JJ Hills radio transmission is playing on the police radio.

12:37 pm Patrolman J. J. Hill:

"Get some men up here to cover this school depository building. It's believed the shot came from, as you see it on Elm Street, it would be upper right hand corner, second window from the end."


At 12:37 Inspector Sawyer is told the rear of the building is sealed off and has been since 12:36. Sawyer then places two officers at the front entrance to seal off the front of the building. Adams after listening to the police radio is allowed to reenter the building by the two officers on the front steps.

Styles could enter the building without being stopped by police, which means she entered at 12.35. Adams was stopped and had to talk her way in at 12.36 or 12.37

Quote
Adams and Styles did not leave the fourth floor until after Baker and Truly ascended the stairs passed the fourth floor.

Adams may also have just been listening to the conversation between the officers.

Nothing you have presented here holds water. All of your "conclusions" are in direct contradiction to the known testimony and some of it is simply made up. Your entire "theory" requires that the girls were able to get from the back to the front of the building in 1 minute which never happened.

Adams and Styles did not leave the fourth floor until after Baker and Truly ascended the stairs passed the fourth floor.

Even if that were true, the girls could still not have encountered Shelley and Lovelady as they came of the stairs, because they were still outside and did not re-enter the building until 12.35.

The reason why you focus on details rather than the entire picture is that you simply can not construct a complete alternate time line that still has all the known facts in the right place.


« Last Edit: July 08, 2020, 11:49:11 PM by Martin Weidmann »

Online Martin Weidmann

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7404

Really? I beg to differ. Photo here shows 12:30 on the clock mere seconds after the last shot and the car speeding away.


And you can guarantee with 100% certainty that the clock on top of the TSBD was accurate to the second?

JFK Assassination Forum


Offline Michael Walton

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 444
For god sake, Martin. Give me a xxxxing break! Look at the xxxxing picture! Stop seeing conspiracy EVERYWHERE! And now with a sinister "incorrect" clock?! Jesus!

Offline Bill Chapman

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6513
For god sake, Martin. Give me a xxxxing break! Look at the xxxxing picture! Stop seeing conspiracy EVERYWHERE! And now with a sinister "incorrect" clock?! Jesus!

Suggestion: Go with '12:30-ish'

 ;)
« Last Edit: July 08, 2020, 06:46:37 PM by Bill Chapman »

JFK Assassination Forum


Offline John Iacoletti

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10812
Really? I beg to differ. Photo here shows 12:30 on the clock mere seconds after the last shot and the car speeding away.

Perhaps you missed my earlier remark on the subject in this thread.

At best we have a McIntyre photo that shows 12:30 on the Hertz clock with the limo coming out from the underpass on the other side, but we also don’t know how or when the Hertz clock was calibrated.