The JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate > JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate
If Oswald Was The Assassin, Did He Plan His Escape From The TSBD Very Well?
Colin Crow:
--- Quote from: Gerry Down on July 30, 2020, 10:32:12 AM ---I sense a slight racial profiling there. Three black men together - must be up to something. Actually the three guys gave televised interviews over the years. That's a strong indication that they had done nothing wrong. Guilty people do not give televised interviews, they tend to avoid interviews like the plague.
--- End quote ---
No racial profiling Gerry just conflicting statements that required clarification. A summary of each appear below with respect to the three at the fists floor window.
Jarman
11/23/63 DPD
"At about 11:45 a.m. all of the employees who were working on the 6th floor came downstairs and we were all out on the street at about 12:00 o'clock noon. These employees were: Bill Shelley, Charles Givens, Billy Lovelady, Bonnie Ray (last name not known) and a Spanish boy (his name I cannot remember). To my knowledge Lee Oswald was not with us while we were watching the parade."
11/24/63 FBI
He was on 5th floor with Williams and Norman when the parade passed.
12/2/63 SS
The floor laying crew came down just before noon. After eating his lunch he went with Williams and Jarman to fifth floor.
1/14/64 FBI
In this statement he claimed he ate his lunch with Williams and Norman on the first floor after noon. This is reinforced by saying that the other two were in his company the whole time they were on the first floor. He recalls they took the west elevator up to the fifth floor about 12.25.
Norman
11/26/63 FBI
As with Jarman's initial statement there was no mention of Williams joining he and Jarman just before the shooting, just that the three were watching the motorcade "about noon" from the fifth floor.
12/4/63 SS
"About 12:15 P.M. on this same date, after I had eaten my lunch, I went to the fifth floor of the building to watch the parade of the President pass the building. Bonnie Ray Williams and James Jarman, who also worked at this building went with me."
1/14/64 FBI
He went outside with Jarman for a few minutes then went to the fifth floor on the west elevator about 12.10 to 12.20. Williams joined him and Jarman.
18/3/64 FBI
He simply states he was with Jarman and Williams on the 5th floor at 12.10 or 12.20 and he felt the shots occurred at this time. One might argue it might be a curious attempt to allow Williams to be clear of the 6th floor by 12.15pm. At this time again there was no indication that Williams joined them at the window.
Williams
11/22/63 DPD
In his initial statement nothing about visiting the 6th floor to eat lunch that day. He stated that the shots came from above. The floor laying crew were all brought in for questioning that day because they worked on that floor. We can conclude he is aware the 6th floor is a "spot of keen interest" to the police yet does not mention that he had been there. His statement implies that after leaving the 6th floor to break for lunch he went to the 5th floor with Jarman and Norman and that they were there only a short time before the shooting.
11/23/63 FBI
Williams now tells of the lunch trip to the 6th floor. There are no details provided as to the contents of the lunch. He claimed he went back upstairs about 12. His stay on the 6th floor only lasts three minutes before joining Jarman and Norman on the 5th floor.
12/2/63 SS
Williams collected his lunch from the first floor and went to the 6th floor. He sat at windows "in the centre of the building". A Dr Pepper bottle and chicken bones (no mention of a lunch bag) were left together on the floor. He didn't see or hear anyone and only ate his lunch for a few minutes. The lunch was "finished" and he left immediately for the 5th floor prior to 12.15pm. (Note 12.15 is mentioned specifically!).
1/8/64 FBI
Williams again stated he ate lunch on the 6th floor at noon. Once again he recalled staying only a few minutes, leaving at 12.05pm, before joining Jarman and Norman on the 5th floor. In this interview he told for the first time that the motivation for going down was that he heard them below. According to this revised timeline he spends about 25 minutes with them before the motorcade arrived. Compare this with his first day statement, taken just 3 hours after the shots, where he stated that "just after we got on the 5th floor the motorcade arrived". In this report he further distanced himself from 12.15pm by effectively moving his departure time from the 6th floor from 12.13 to 12.05!
March 18th Internal Memorandum: Belin and Ball to Willens
In this extensive memorandum in the lead up to key witnesses testifying before the Commission, Ball and Belin ask the following questions on page 4.
Ball and Belin asked for clarification regarding the contents of the lunch, where it was eaten and whether it was in the sack. They wanted to know if Williams saw anyone while eating the lunch and what time he arrived on the 5th floor. They also wanted to know if there were fingerprints on the sack.
Understandably, these are some of the same questions anyone would have after reading his statements when compared to those of the numerous DPD officers who described the "assassins' lunch" in the SN upon arrival and those of his workmates (see above).
Alan Ford:
--- Quote from: Gerry Down on July 30, 2020, 10:32:12 AM ---This might explain why Oswald then ran into the 2nd floor lunch room ahead of Baker and Truly for the 2nd floor lunch room encounter to take place.
--- End quote ---
The post-assassination lunchroom encounter between Mr Oswald, Officer Baker & Mr Truly never happened--------it seems Officer Baker did however catch an 'employee' walking away from the stairway higher up in the building. Thumb1:
Alan Ford:
--- Quote from: Colin Crow on July 30, 2020, 12:27:19 PM ---No racial profiling Gerry just conflicting statements that required clarification.
--- End quote ---
Thumb1:
Dan O'meara:
--- Quote from: Alan Ford on July 30, 2020, 09:15:27 AM ---Mr Williams' fingerprints were possibly found on the bottle. Just as possible that A.N.Other's (non-employee) were found on it--------and that this was the reason it was discarded...
There is no real evidence the chicken bones/bottle had anything to do with Mr Williams---or even, for that matter, the assassination. His strained attempts in his WC testimony to tie himself to them are a complete mess.
Your scenario does have the large merit of internal coherence, Mr O'Meara, but pinning Mr Williams as a co-conspirator seems to me to leave unaddressed a number of issues, such as the lack of fit between Mr Williams and Mr Rowland's 'elderly Negro'; Mr Rowland's sighting of two black men at the fifth floor window ~12.15pm; the improbability/absurdity of his claimed lunchtime victuals (chicken-on-the-bone sandwich); the lucky happenstance of Messrs Norman & Jarman deciding to go up to the fifth and not sixth floor (the more obvious vantage point, with or without any prior discussion amongst co-workers); Mr Williams' utter failure (odd in a co-conspirator) to say anything to incriminate Mr Oswald.
My read on Mr Williams is that the poor guy was majorly spooked out by something he saw shortly before the assassination--------or rather: it spooked him out once the assassination happened and he realised its true significance. And I suspect he was not the only employee to have had this experience.
FWIW! Thumb1:
--- End quote ---
Williams WC testimony is evidence the lunch was his. His initial denial of it is evidence of guilt (a disgraceful omission by the WC), He owns up to it because his fingerprints are found on the bottle (another disgraceful omission by the WC, not to mention the destruction of such vital evidence. Follow the evidence? How?) IMO 8)
You're hanging on the word 'elderly. but Rowland makes it absolutely clear he is not really focusing on him. When he first mentions this figure he says " It was a colored man, I think." When he is asked to go into specific detail all he can muster is "It seemed to me an elderly Negro, that is about all. I didn't pay very much attention to him (doesn't mention his clothes, height, weight etc.)
The partially eaten piece of fried chicken on the bone found in the SN puts Williams there as does Rowland's black male. The lateness of Jarman and Norman's late trip the fifth floor (why not the seventh if they're so bothered about a great view) is well attested to and there are plenty of reasons to believe Williams doesn't go down to the fifth until the last minute.
What report or indication is there of any non-employee on the 6th floor turning people back or getting them to leave?
According to Rowland, "Williams" is on the same floor as the man with the rifle for at least 10 minutes.
The scenario outlined above has the least outlandish assumptions I can think of. Not much of a measure of the 'truth'.
Alan Ford:
--- Quote from: Dan O'meara on July 31, 2020, 02:42:53 AM ---Williams WC testimony is evidence the lunch was his. His initial denial of it is evidence of guilt (a disgraceful omission by the WC), He owns up to it because his fingerprints are found on the bottle (another disgraceful omission by the WC, not to mention the destruction of such vital evidence. Follow the evidence? How?) IMO 8)
--- End quote ---
So fingerprints that are not in evidence are to be adduced as evidence?
If the fingerprints on the bottle had been Mr Williams', that fact would surely have gone into the official record as it posed no threat to the official story. That no such thing happened may point------IMO------to their belonging to (unidentified, non-employee) A. N. Other, Esq.!
Alternatively, those chicken bones & that bottle had nothing to with the assassination... Cf-------------------
Mr. BALL - Did you see anybody eating fried chicken on that floor that morning?
Mr. SHELLEY - At one time I think I said I did but Charles Givens was the guy that was eating and he was further on over toward the west side and he was eating a sandwich so he says.
Mr. BALL - Now you say that you thought that you had seen someone had eaten fried chicken that morning?
Mr. SHELLEY - I thought I had; those colored boys are always eating chicken.
Mr. BALL - Do you think you did or do you know?
Mr. SHELLEY - I asked Charles Givens whether it was him that was eating and he said it was a sandwich.
Mr. BALL - Was that before you went down for lunch?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yes, sir; it was pretty early in the morning, about 9:30.
Mr. BALL - Where was it?
Mr. SHELLEY - It was two-thirds across the building toward the west because I didn't put plywood over there and he didn't get too far from where we were actually working.
--- Quote ---You're hanging on the word 'elderly. but Rowland makes it absolutely clear he is not really focusing on him. When he first mentions this figure he says " It was a colored man, I think."
--- End quote ---
You are leaving out his clarification elsewhere as to why the hesitation on this score: "not real dark compared to some Negroes, but fairly dark"
--- Quote ---When he is asked to go into specific detail all he can muster is "It seemed to me an elderly Negro, that is about all. I didn't pay very much attention to him (doesn't mention his clothes, height, weight etc.)
--- End quote ---
Huh? When asked to go into specific detail, he goes into specific detail-----------clothes, height, weight, hair, facial characteristics.
--- Quote ---The partially eaten piece of fried chicken on the bone found in the SN puts Williams there as does Rowland's black male.
--- End quote ---
Again, there is good reason to doubt any actual linkage of those bones with Mr Williams and his bizarre Chicken-On-The-Bone-Sandwich!
--- Quote ---The lateness of Jarman and Norman's late trip the fifth floor (why not the seventh if they're so bothered about a great view)
--- End quote ---
a) They were unfamiliar with it
b) Look!---------
--- Quote --- is well attested to and there are plenty of reasons to believe Williams doesn't go down to the fifth until the last minute.
--- End quote ---
Only if Messrs Jarman & Norman are telling the truth about his joining them.
There is an excellent reason to believe he got there before Messrs Norman & Jarman-----------------Mr Rowland's sighting of at least two black men at the southeast fifth-floor window ca. 12.15pm! I believe one of them was Mr Williams. The other? Mr Piper or Mr Lewis or Mr Jones---------take your pick!
--- Quote ---What report or indication is there of any non-employee on the 6th floor turning people back or getting them to leave?
--- End quote ---
The curious fact that everyone stayed away from that 6th floor for the motorcade (which makes that floor unique amongst all the floors in the building on which people worked)!
--- Quote ---According to Rowland, "Williams" is on the same floor as the man with the rifle for at least 10 minutes.
--- End quote ---
Yes, "Williams"...
--- Quote ---The scenario outlined above has the least outlandish assumptions I can think of. Not much of a measure of the 'truth'.
--- End quote ---
Where we agree, Mr O'Meara, is on the probability that the black man on 6 seen by Mr Rowland was in on the conspiracy! Thumb1:
Navigation
[0] Message Index
[#] Next page
[*] Previous page
Go to full version