Users Currently Browsing This Topic:
0 Members and 8 Guests are viewing this topic.

Author Topic: Shells, rifle, SN... Who?  (Read 3678 times)

Offline Walt Cakebread

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4392
Re: Shells, rifle, SN... Who?
« Reply #100 on: March 26, 2020, 03:32:20 PM »
Must be one of Duncan's automatic word replacement scripts.

Yes....  I think you're right. ...but it is frustrating.   

Do you have any idea how Sayers got the idea that Seymour Weitzman actually had the rifle in his hands and Fritz "appeared and took it from him"

Online Tom Scully

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1362
Re: Shells, rifle, SN... Who?
« Reply #101 on: March 26, 2020, 03:52:57 PM »
.....

PS....I did not write Brian Sawyers ......I wrote Brian   BrianSawyers......and I have attempted to correct that by erasing the name "Brian " and inserting Albert, but it doesn't change....  Can anybody explain this?

Walt, it is a script. My "work around" is to spell it using the number 1 as a substitute for the non-capital letter L :

A1bert

Responding to the question asked in the OP of this thread....

What do you make of this... I discovered and documented Grossi / Bowen informing author Epstein that Oswald brought his MC rifle to their place of employment and that James H Martin had an interestingly similar criminal background as Grossi / Bowen with the US Navy at approx. the same time, both were car thieves, and Martin claimed the government had run his background and "propositioned him" into taking Marina and her two girls into his home. Not the stuff of lone nuttery!

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=71122&search=martin_and+%221941+chevrolet+car%22#relPageId=4&tab=page
FBI - HSCA Subject File: James Herbert Martin/
https://www.maryferrell.org/php/showlist.php?docset=1252

Anybody want to attempt to explain why Fleda Ryder Bowen Mantooth's brother, Dial Ryder, and her former husband Jack Bowen, father of their son, wanted the public to believe Oswald just happened to present "his rifle" to both of them? Doesn't seem to fit the "lone nut" narrative, but more like conspiring of a felon or two, to plant or to cement a narrative? ....
« Last Edit: March 26, 2020, 03:59:13 PM by Tom Scully »

Offline John Iacoletti

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7848
Re: Shells, rifle, SN... Who?
« Reply #102 on: March 26, 2020, 04:17:54 PM »
Yes....  I think you're right. ...but it is frustrating.   

Do you have any idea how Sayers got the idea that Seymour Weitzman actually had the rifle in his hands and Fritz "appeared and took it from him"

Maybe it actually happened.  You can't expect that the small amount of remaining Alyea footage captured everything that happened.

Offline Walt Cakebread

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4392
Re: Shells, rifle, SN... Who?
« Reply #103 on: March 26, 2020, 04:23:06 PM »
Walt, it is a script. My "work around" is to spell it using the number 1 as a substitute for the non-capital letter L :

A1bert

Responding to the question asked in the OP of this thread....

Thank you, Tom..... I'll try that the next time....

Offline Walt Cakebread

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4392
Re: Shells, rifle, SN... Who?
« Reply #104 on: March 26, 2020, 04:51:29 PM »
Maybe it actually happened.  You can't expect that the small amount of remaining Alyea footage captured everything that happened.

Maybe it actually happened.

 Virtually everybody who was present after the rifle was discovered, said that nobody touched the rifle before Lt Day picked it off the floor.   If Weitzman had picked up the rifle he probably would have been fired on the spot.  I seriously doubt that Weitzman ever had his hands on the carcano.....  However There is a very real possibilty that Weitzman examined a 7.65 Mauser that he had been told was the rifle that he and Boone had discovered.     Recall that initially the authorities were adamant that the rifle was a Mauser....and many news reports said that the rifle was a Mauser.   

A1bert Sawyers report sounds as though Weitzman was given a Mauser and asked to describe it....Which he did...and his description seems to be describing a 7.65 Mauser....NOT the carcano.    One of the most interesting points is Weitzman saying the the rear of the bolt was damaged .....  The bolt of the carcano ( C2766) is definitely NOT damaged.....

I can only speculate that by Saturday the conspirators were getting very nervous and knew that they had no case against Lee Oswald....Thus they might have been preparing to present the Mauser as the murder weapon or the weapon of Lee Oswald's acomplice.....
« Last Edit: March 26, 2020, 04:59:39 PM by Walt Cakebread »

Online Tom Scully

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1362
Re: Shells, rifle, SN... Who?
« Reply #105 on: March 26, 2020, 05:10:07 PM »
Maybe it actually happened.

 Virtually everybody who was present after the rifle was discovered, said that nobody touched the rifle before Lt Day picked it off the floor.   If Weitzman had picked up the rifle he probably would have been fired on the spot.  I seriously doubt that Weitzman ever had his hands on the carcano.....  However There is a very real possibilty that Weitzman examined a 7.65 Mauser that he had been told was the rifle that he and Boone had discovered.     Recall that initially the authorities were adamant that the rifle was a Mauser....and many news reports said that the rifle was a Mauser.   

A1bert Sawyers report sounds as though Weitzman was given a Mauser and asked to describe it....Which he did...and his description seems to be describing a 7.65 Mauser....NOT the carcano.    One of the most interesting points is Weitzman saying the the rear of the bolt was damaged .....  The bolt of the carcano ( C2766) is definitely NOT damaged.....

I can only speculate that by Saturday the conspirators were getting very nervous and knew that they had no case against Lee Oswald....Thus they might have been preparing to present the Mauser as the murder weapon or the weapon of Lee Oswald's acomplice.....

Walt, why are you being so stubborn? Dial Ryder and his brother-in-law, Grossi AKA Bowen both claim they saw Oswald's rifle and one of Oswald's wallets had this lie-berry card inside!
"eyes" dotted, "tees" crossed, Walt. Suggest you finally, "get with the program"!



Dial Ryder's sister Fleta married, back to back, two felons, but so what!

LINK :





Quote
https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/29053767/fleta-l_-mantooth
Fleta L. Ryder Mantooth
BIRTH   3 May 1923
Claremont, Richland County, Illinois, USA
DEATH   14 Aug 2008 (aged 85)
Olney, Young County, Texas, USA

Fleta was the daughter of Homer Richard and Magdalena Jeanetta (Baehr) Ryder and raised with one brother and six sisters. She married Roy Lee Mantooth December 13, 1963, in Albany, Texas. He preceded her in death on March 10, 1979.

During World War II she built B-29's and B-17's in Illinois and Fort Worth, Texas. She worked for U.S. Brass in assembly for 20 years and most recently for Olney I.S.D. in food services. She was a member of the Southside Baptist Church and the Cross Country Emmaus Community.

She moved to Olney from Abilene, Texas in 1990. She was preceded in death by two sisters, Fern Boyett and Mardella Cox.

At time of death she was survived by one son, Glenn Lewis Mantooth and wife, Nicole of Abilene, Texas; two daughters, Dixie Kirby and husband DeWayne of Olney, Texas and Gypsie Fomby and husband Dale of Clyde, Texas; one brother, Dial Ryder of Irving, Texas; four sisters, Magdelene Beanblossom of Decatur, Illinois, Iseaphene Kutz of Olney, Illinois, Marcella Farrar of Poteau, Oklahoma and Velma Douglas of Killeen, Texas.


« Last Edit: March 26, 2020, 05:41:43 PM by Tom Scully »

Online Mitch Todd

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 448
Re: Shells, rifle, SN... Who?
« Reply #106 on: March 27, 2020, 12:50:22 AM »
Weitzman’s affidavit was from Saturday - long after the Carcano seen being carried out of the TSBD was in evidence. The excuse he gave in his retraction was that he only saw it “at a glance”, but not only did his affidavit give a very specific caliber for the rifle, he also described the rifle, scope, and strap in quite a lot of detail for just a “glance”.
So how did Weitzman describe the rifle? In his affidavit, he said this: "The rifle was a 7.65 Mauser bolt-action rifle equipped with a 4/18 scope, a thick leather brownish-black sling on it."

And in the FBI report describing Constable Weitzman's excellent adventure, the rifle is described thus:

"a 7.65 Mauser bolt-action rifle which loads from a five shot clip which is locked on the underside of the receiver forward of the trigger guard. The metal parts of this rifle were of a gun metal color, gray or blue, and the rear portion of the bolt was visibly worn. The wooden portions of this rifle were a dark brown color and of rough wood, apparently having been used or damaged a considerable extent. This rifle was equipped with a four-power 18 scope  of apparent Japanese manufacture. It was also equipped with a thick, brown-black leather bandolier type sling."

Most of the described detail is nothing that anyone couldn't pick up in Weitzman's putative glance. The color of the stock and it's well-worn, rough appearance are nothing that can't be picked up in that first look at the rifle. Same with the color of the metal -- it's a gun that happens to be imaginatively described as being a "gun metal color." Weitzman's attempt to be more specific does little better: "gray or blue" --he can't even settle on a particular hue. The sling is "thick," "leather," and "brownish-black," none of which require any study beyond that first glance to figure out. So far, we have a very generic, if well-used, rifle.

Here's where it gets interesting. He is fairly specific about the scope. It's 4 x 18, and of "apparent Japanese manufacture." So how would he have known? Easy. That information is printed on the scope in big white letters on a black background for easy reading:


 
Now, there's one particular feature of the rifle that Weitzman decided to call out. "A five shot clip which is locked on the underside of the receiver forward of the trigger guard." Kinda like this:



What you're looking at here is the action of a Mauser Model 1891, often known as an Argentine Mauser. The model 1889/1890/1891 Mausers (all essentially the same design) have that fixed single-stack magazine extending down below the forestock. They are the only Mauser rifles with that magazine configuration. The previous models had a  tubular magazine, and later ones (from the model 1893 on) were made with a double-stack magazine that didn't extend beneath the forestock. And all of the 1889/1890/1891 Mausers were chambered at the factory in 7.65x53. Single stack magazines fell out of favor in the bolt action world in the 1890's. Most post-WWI designs were derived from the Model 98, including it's more compact, double stack magazine.

As I've said previously, the Argentine government began to unload it's old bolt action rifles for surplus in the late '50s. A lot of these rifles wound up in the US, where they were picked up by budget-conscious shooters. Someone who had run into an Argentine Mauser, but had no particular exposure to the larger world of surplus bolt action rifles, could easily have seen a Carcano with it's prominent single stack magazine and assumed that it was one of the Argentine rifles based on that feature alone. And once they decided that, they "knew" that the rifle would have been chambered in 7.65 Mauser.

Curry was forced to retract his statement that the FBI had prior knowledge of Oswald, but it was true.
I think it was something more like, Curry said that the FBI hadn't told the DPD about Oswald at one of Curry's impromptu new conferences. Then, news stories beganto appear regarding "sources in the Dallas Police" who claimed that the FBI admitted that they knew Oswald could be a threat, which is a bit different from what Curry told the press.  Of course, that brought a on a mighty thundering cloudburst of wrath from The J Edgar. Curry wound up saying that the FBI had not told anyone in the DPD that the FBI considered Oswald a threat to JFK. The whole issue turns on a single conversation between Hosty and Revill. Revill always maintained that Hosty told him that the FBI knew LHO could be a threat. Hosty maintained until his death that Revill's accusation was simply untrue. If only someone had been there to film the conversation, like Alyea recording the discovery of the rifle! ;-P


Online Mitch Todd

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 448
Re: Shells, rifle, SN... Who?
« Reply #107 on: March 27, 2020, 01:07:31 AM »





Can you tell me exactly what those photos have to do with what I'd said?

BTW, if you've been around milsurps for a bit and look closely, you'll notice the tool marks where some took a grinder to the top of the receivers on the top two rifles (it's easier to see on the second photo).  That's because the Argentine government required that their military rifles have the national crest removed from their surplus firearms before they could sold for export. The "7.65 Mauser" was added decades after the rifles' manufacture. The Gun Control Act of 1968 was passed in reaction to RFK's assassination.  One of it's provisions was that imported firearms were required to have the caliber 
engraved on the weapon after 1968. In the two top cases, you're looking at the result.   

The bottom example is a k98 made during the Nazi era. There is no "7.65" (it would be chambered for 8mm x 57), so I have no idea what you're getting at.

Offline Walt Cakebread

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4392
Re: Shells, rifle, SN... Who?
« Reply #108 on: March 27, 2020, 01:33:10 AM »
So how did Weitzman describe the rifle? In his affidavit, he said this: "The rifle was a 7.65 Mauser bolt-action rifle equipped with a 4/18 scope, a thick leather brownish-black sling on it."

And in the FBI report describing Constable Weitzman's excellent adventure, the rifle is described thus:

"a 7.65 Mauser bolt-action rifle which loads from a five shot clip which is locked on the underside of the receiver forward of the trigger guard. The metal parts of this rifle were of a gun metal color, gray or blue, and the rear portion of the bolt was visibly worn. The wooden portions of this rifle were a dark brown color and of rough wood, apparently having been used or damaged a considerable extent. This rifle was equipped with a four-power 18 scope  of apparent Japanese manufacture. It was also equipped with a thick, brown-black leather bandolier type sling."

Most of the described detail is nothing that anyone couldn't pick up in Weitzman's putative glance. The color of the stock and it's well-worn, rough appearance are nothing that can't be picked up in that first look at the rifle. Same with the color of the metal -- it's a gun that happens to be imaginatively described as being a "gun metal color." Weitzman's attempt to be more specific does little better: "gray or blue" --he can't even settle on a particular hue. The sling is "thick," "leather," and "brownish-black," none of which require any study beyond that first glance to figure out. So far, we have a very generic, if well-used, rifle.

Here's where it gets interesting. He is fairly specific about the scope. It's 4 x 18, and of "apparent Japanese manufacture." So how would he have known? Easy. That information is printed on the scope in big white letters on a black background for easy reading:


 
Now, there's one particular feature of the rifle that Weitzman decided to call out. "A five shot clip which is locked on the underside of the receiver forward of the trigger guard." Kinda like this:



What you're looking at here is the action of a Mauser Model 1891, often known as an Argentine Mauser. The model 1889/1890/1891 Mausers (all essentially the same design) have that fixed single-stack magazine extending down below the forestock. They are the only Mauser rifles with that magazine configuration. The previous models had a  tubular magazine, and later ones (from the model 1893 on) were made with a double-stack magazine that didn't extend beneath the forestock. And all of the 1889/1890/1891 Mausers were chambered at the factory in 7.65x53. Single stack magazines fell out of favor in the bolt action world in the 1890's. Most post-WWI designs were derived from the Model 98, including it's more compact, double stack magazine.

As I've said previously, the Argentine government began to unload it's old bolt action rifles for surplus in the late '50s. A lot of these rifles wound up in the US, where they were picked up by budget-conscious shooters. Someone who had run into an Argentine Mauser, but had no particular exposure to the larger world of surplus bolt action rifles, could easily have seen a Carcano with it's prominent single stack magazine and assumed that it was one of the Argentine rifles based on that feature alone. And once they decided that, they "knew" that the rifle would have been chambered in 7.65 Mauser.
I think it was something more like, Curry said that the FBI hadn't told the DPD about Oswald at one of Curry's impromptu new conferences. Then, news stories beganto appear regarding "sources in the Dallas Police" who claimed that the FBI admitted that they knew Oswald could be a threat, which is a bit different from what Curry told the press.  Of course, that brought a on a mighty thundering cloudburst of wrath from The J Edgar. Curry wound up saying that the FBI had not told anyone in the DPD that the FBI considered Oswald a threat to JFK. The whole issue turns on a single conversation between Hosty and Revill. Revill always maintained that Hosty told him that the FBI knew LHO could be a threat. Hosty maintained until his death that Revill's accusation was simply untrue. If only someone had been there to film the conversation, like Alyea recording the discovery of the rifle! ;-P

Wow!...an excellent post Mitch.....You've raised many debatable points and I think that's great! 

Let's start with you last statement first.....

Revill always maintained that Hosty told him that the FBI knew LHO could be a threat. Hosty maintained until his death that Revill's accusation was simply untrue.

Revill immediately wrote a memo to his boss Captain Gannaway after Hosty imparted the information to him at about 2:50 pm .    I seriously doubt that Revill would have immediately notified Captain Gannaway if Hosty hadn't told him exactly what Revill said he did.  Revill was one of the good cops on the DPD, while Hosty worked for the most corrupt and evil monster (JEH) that ever held high office in the US..   

Now to the part of your post that has me most excited....


"a 7.65 Mauser bolt-action rifle which loads from a five shot clip which is locked on the underside of the receiver forward of the trigger guard. The metal parts of this rifle were of a gun metal color, gray or blue, and the rear portion of the bolt was visibly worn. The wooden portions of this rifle were a dark brown color and of rough wood, apparently having been used or damaged a considerable extent. This rifle was equipped with a four-power 18 scope  of apparent Japanese manufacture. It was also equipped with a thick, brown-black leather bandolier type sling."

It seems clear to me that Weitzman actually had a 7.65 Mauser in his hands as he examined it and described it.   He's NOT describing the 6.5mm Carcano that was discovered beneath the boxes on the sixth floor of the TSBD.   It appears that Weitzman was handed a 7.65 Mauser and asked to describe it.   Let's parse Weitzman's description.


"a 7.65 Mauser bolt-action rifle which loads from a five shot clip which is locked on the underside of the receiver forward of the trigger guard.

A five shot clip .... The Carcano uses a six shot clip......  And it does NOT lock on the underside of the receiver.   The Carcano six cartridge clip loads from the top of the receiver.

The metal parts of this rifle were of a gun metal color, gray or blue, and the rear portion of the bolt was visibly worn.

The metal of the TSBD carcano is a very definite dark blue......And the rear portion of the bolt is NOT visibly worn.  However the metal of a mauser is gray colored.

The wooden portions of this rifle were a dark brown color and of rough wood,

The wood of the TSBD Carcano is NOT rough.....The wood is not highly polished but it's not "rough"  The carcano has an oil finish.....

apparently having been used or damaged a considerable extent.

You've seen photos of the TSBD carcano.....Do you think the stock is beat up,  does it appear to have scratches or gouges?

This rifle was equipped with a four-power 18 scope  of apparent Japanese manufacture.

This bit doesn't mean much.....except for the fact that the Scope on the TSBD carcano was CLEARLY marked as  Holly wood Optics,  having been manufactured in Japan ...so there would have been no reason to speculate.

It was also equipped with a thick, brown-black leather bandolier type sling."

The TSBD carcano was NOT equipped with a thick "brown black" leather sling.....and it was NOT a bandoleer type sling ....


I hope you will accept my post in the vein intended....I'm certainly not attacking you....I'm merely pointing out that it looks to me like Weitzman was describing a 7.65 Mauser.

Offline John Iacoletti

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7848
Re: Shells, rifle, SN... Who?
« Reply #109 on: March 27, 2020, 06:07:03 AM »
Most of the described detail is nothing that anyone couldn't pick up in Weitzman's putative glance.

Then you have a way different idea of what constitutes a “glance” then I do. If he examined the rifle long enough to read and remember the printing on the scope, to notice the wear on the bolt, and damage to the stock he didn’t just “glance” at it. And if he took enough time to read the printing on the scope, why didn’t he notice the “made in Italy” stamp on the Carcano?

And he didn’t say he glanced at it and assumed it was a Mauser because of the external appearance, he said it was a 7.65 Mauser with a five shot clip which is locked on the underside of the receiver forward of the trigger guard. The Carcano doesn’t have a 5-shot clip or a clip under the receiver.

Quote
If only someone had been there to film the conversation, like Alyea recording the discovery of the rifle! ;-P

Hang on. There’s nothing about the existing Alyea footage that would tell you that the rifle was just discovered. Or that it was the only rifle discovered.

 

Mobile View