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Author Topic: Oswald's sack in the Sniper's nest.  (Read 76180 times)

Offline Colin Crow

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Re: Oswald's sack in the Sniper's nest.
« Reply #568 on: March 22, 2020, 11:13:15 AM »
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Funny thing about that 1/8/64 letter from Day--he never mentions finding the bag. Hmmm... By then, the FBI had dragged out of Day and Fritz etc that Frazier had been shown the bag and had stated as fact that it was not the bag he saw in Oswald's possession. It seems that scared the DPD out of using it as evidence against Oswald, which would explain why they never got their stories straight. As far as they were concerned, it was like that stinking map--non-evidence. But the FBI and WC wouldn't let it go, and kept asking them about it, which resulted in the incredible mess we have today--with multiple men claiming they discovered the bag, or saw it discovered, and none of them telling a consistent or credible story about when and where it was found.

If the bag was made by Studebaker to wrap the rifle for transport, technically the comment written by Day on the bag was correct. If the rifle had been placed on the paper during construction it would be the inside that was important if evidence was transferred to the paper at that time. Studebaker was alone and in charge while Day was away and he was an "apprentice" at best. Transferring the bag to the FBI might make sense if Day felt it might be useful, containing material to the inside during constriction. Day was likely unaware of Montgomery holding the bag in such a fashion to contaminate and lose material during transport. The problem for the Crime Lab was when it was claimed by the FBI that it contained Oswald's prints. At that point they were in a bind.

The other point about the curtain rod/bag story is that it originated with Frazier many hours after his sister talked to Adamcek at the Paine’s. We were told she was aware the day before of the reason for Oswald's unusual visit yet failed to mention it to the police.

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Re: Oswald's sack in the Sniper's nest.
« Reply #568 on: March 22, 2020, 11:13:15 AM »


Offline Jack Nessan

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Re: Oswald's sack in the Sniper's nest.
« Reply #569 on: March 22, 2020, 02:14:32 PM »
And they are all dead and buried, so you can easily make such an unverifiable and meaningless claim......

That fact they were killed during the war by the Italians is the point. The carcano was an accurate rifle.

 

Offline Jack Nessan

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Re: Oswald's sack in the Sniper's nest.
« Reply #570 on: March 22, 2020, 02:45:02 PM »
Funny thing about that 1/8/64 letter from Day--he never mentions finding the bag. Hmmm... By then, the FBI had dragged out of Day and Fritz etc that Frazier had been shown the bag and had stated as fact that it was not the bag he saw in Oswald's possession. It seems that scared the DPD out of using it as evidence against Oswald, which would explain why they never got their stories straight. As far as they were concerned, it was like that stinking map--non-evidence. But the FBI and WC wouldn't let it go, and kept asking them about it, which resulted in the incredible mess we have today--with multiple men claiming they discovered the bag, or saw it discovered, and none of them telling a consistent or credible story about when and where it was found.

Day's final comment on the whole bag story makes the most sense about what happened that day. They found it but the detectives moved it before it was processed and the rest is just hoping the whole thing will go away. It is obvious they did not get together and fabricate a storyline. To their credit they did not try and stage the photo. Obviously they could not get their story straight about the discovery of the bag. Day's description of what it looked like in the corner when he first saw the bag is fairly descriptive.

Mr. DAY. I mean the pipe. The sack was between the pipe and the wall at the top of the picture.
Mr. BELIN. That wall at the top of the picture would be the east wall, would it not?
Mr. DAY. Yes, sir; laying parallel to the south wall.
Mr. BELIN. Did the sack--was it folded over in any way or just lying flat, if you remember?
Mr. DAY. It was folded over with the fold next to the pipe, to the best of my knowledge.


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Re: Oswald's sack in the Sniper's nest.
« Reply #570 on: March 22, 2020, 02:45:02 PM »


Online Charles Collins

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Re: Oswald's sack in the Sniper's nest.
« Reply #571 on: March 22, 2020, 03:15:19 PM »
Funny thing about that 1/8/64 letter from Day--he never mentions finding the bag. Hmmm... By then, the FBI had dragged out of Day and Fritz etc that Frazier had been shown the bag and had stated as fact that it was not the bag he saw in Oswald's possession. It seems that scared the DPD out of using it as evidence against Oswald, which would explain why they never got their stories straight. As far as they were concerned, it was like that stinking map--non-evidence. But the FBI and WC wouldn't let it go, and kept asking them about it, which resulted in the incredible mess we have today--with multiple men claiming they discovered the bag, or saw it discovered, and none of them telling a consistent or credible story about when and where it was found.

Funny thing that the case report (page 2) filed by Captain Fritz on 11/22/1963 says that Lieutenant J.C. Day lifted prints on building and from rifle and paper rifle was wrapped in.

Online Martin Weidmann

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Re: Oswald's sack in the Sniper's nest.
« Reply #572 on: March 22, 2020, 03:17:35 PM »
That fact they were killed during the war by the Italians is the point. The carcano was an accurate rifle.

Your entire point is just as unverifiable and meaningless as before....

There were an estimated 1.4 million Austrian/Hongarian soldiers killed in the entire WW1.

Your suggestion that a million of them were killed by Italians with carcano rifles is just as pathetic as untrue.
« Last Edit: March 22, 2020, 03:19:58 PM by Martin Weidmann »

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Re: Oswald's sack in the Sniper's nest.
« Reply #572 on: March 22, 2020, 03:17:35 PM »


Offline Walt Cakebread

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Re: Oswald's sack in the Sniper's nest.
« Reply #573 on: March 22, 2020, 03:35:38 PM »
Day's final comment on the whole bag story makes the most sense about what happened that day. They found it but the detectives moved it before it was processed and the rest is just hoping the whole thing will go away. It is obvious they did not get together and fabricate a storyline. To their credit they did not try and stage the photo. Obviously they could not get their story straight about the discovery of the bag. Day's description of what it looked like in the corner when he first saw the bag is fairly descriptive.

Mr. DAY. I mean the pipe. The sack was between the pipe and the wall at the top of the picture.
Mr. BELIN. That wall at the top of the picture would be the east wall, would it not?
Mr. DAY. Yes, sir; laying parallel to the south wall.
Mr. BELIN. Did the sack--was it folded over in any way or just lying flat, if you remember?
Mr. DAY. It was folded over with the fold next to the pipe, to the best of my knowledge.

IMO      Someone knew that the script called for the discovery of a paper sack that looked like a "gun case" in which the patsy ( Lee Oswald) could have smuggled the carcano into the building.  And that person placed a large paper sack ( gun case) in a conspicuous place to be found by the investigators, just as they found the spent shells and the rifle.   

Offline Colin Crow

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Re: Oswald's sack in the Sniper's nest.
« Reply #574 on: March 22, 2020, 05:28:36 PM »
Funny thing that the case report (page 2) filed by Captain Fritz on 11/22/1963 says that Lieutenant J.C. Day lifted prints on building and from rifle and paper rifle was wrapped in.

Funny thing is that Studebaker claimed he fingerprinted the sack prior to it leaving the TSBD. Bit of a frustrating mess isn’t it? Where are the prints Day lifted from the sack?

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Re: Oswald's sack in the Sniper's nest.
« Reply #574 on: March 22, 2020, 05:28:36 PM »


Offline Bill Chapman

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Re: Oswald's sack in the Sniper's nest.
« Reply #575 on: March 22, 2020, 06:52:01 PM »
That fact they were killed during the war by the Italians is the point. The carcano was an accurate rifle.

The nutjob in the Cuckoo's Nest amply demonstrated just how accurate the Carcano can be in practiced hands. Going 2-for-3 is a great batting average in any man's league. But one cannot claim exact numbers of deaths-by-Carcano unless one has documentation. Or wounded-by-Carcano, for that matter. But having said that, see below (in 'Austrian-Hungarian Losses') how difficult it was to obtain accurate information on military casualties of war.

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The Carcano on the battlefield:

World War1 (Italian-Front Equipment)
http://www.worldwar1.com/itafront/equip_w.htm

MANNLICHER-CARCANO MODEL 1891 OF 6.5 MM. CALIBER RIFLE  : The standard Italian rifle of the Great War was adopted in 1891. It was fed with a 6-round clip. The clip was a Mannlicher design and the breech block assembly was designed by an Italian gunsmith named Carcano. While it is looked down upon by some devotees of the "finer" rifles, it was a rugged weapon that didn't foul up easily and withstood hard treatment. Its smaller cartridges [6.5mm vs. 7.6mm] meant a soldier could carry more rounds and its clip held 6 rounds vs. 5 per clip for almost all rifles of the other belligerents. It's length [140 cm, 160 cm with the bayonet] which can be noted in the photo at the top of this article was designed for an obsolete method of warfare, allowing an infantryman to fend off the lance or saber of a mounted cavalryman. Since it proved to be clumsy in the tight confines of the trenches, a carbine version called the 'moschetto' adapted from the carbine version used by the cavalry was also given to special troops, carabinieri [MP's], officers, NCOs and Arditi [shock troops]. Both carbines fired the same cartridge the rifle did, indeed they were just shortened versions of the rifle. Both had a turned down bolt handle rather than a straight one. The cavalry version had a built in folding bayonet while the infantry adaptation had a detachable one and a longer wood stock.

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Austrian-Hungarian Losses in The Great War
https://encyclopedia.1914-1918-online.net/article/war_losses_austria-

Military Losses

[includes civilians]

During the war, two independent institutions registered military losses: the first was the “List of Losses” (Verlustliste), compiled by the Department X/VL (Verlustlistengruppe – Group of the List of Losses) of the Ministry of War (Kriegsministerium), which in August 1917 was transferred to the Office of War Statistics (Kriegsstatistisches Büro) attached to the War Archives(Kriegsarchiv). Independently, the Austro-Hungarian High Command (k.u.k.Armeeoberkommando, or AOK) also recorded losses. Both institutions counted differently and came to different figures: in its last report on losses up to September 1918, the AOK registered 499,203 deaths whereas the Kriegsstatistische Büro noted 363,144 deaths at the front and 324,590 deaths in hospitals, altogether 627,534 deaths for the same time. In both cases, the total dead were calculated to include an unknown number of dead who were classified as missing. At the end of the war about 1 million people were missing.

After the war, three people were active in calculating war losses. The first was Winkler. During the war he had been a member of the Scientific Committee of War Economy (Wissenschaftliches Komitee für Kriegswirtschaft, or WKKW) which was part of the Kriegsministerium. After the war, he worked in the Ministry of Military Affairs (Staatsamt für Heerwesen), but joined the Office of Statistics (Bundesamt für Statistik) in 1921. His publication on war dead in 1919 was based on works of the WKKW undertaken in 1917/18.[3] The WKKW did not try to fix an exact number of deaths. Instead, it estimated the number of deaths at 1.2 million by the end of 1917. A sample of 120,000 deaths from eight different time periods was classified by home regions (sub-categorized by nationality) as well as age and then grossed up to 1.2 million. This work was marked by a German-national view and, in particular, the classification of the fallen soldiers into national groups is tendentious in its derivation and in its conclusion. For Winkler, however, these results could be used to scale the heroism of the different nations of the monarchy: the higher the losses per capita, the “tougher” the nation. Winkler failed to take into account many factors influencing the intensity of losses and his conclusions are highly flawed. For example, according to Winkler, Bosnia had the fewest losses per capita. Yet, during the first years of war Bosnia faced the worst supply situation of the monarchy and its recruiting results were much below average. This was also a time of high losses as shown in table 2. If there are fewer Bosnian soldiers in times of high losses and Bosnia had the least losses per capita, this figure says nothing about the heroism of Bosnian soldiers.

In addition to Winkler, Gaston Bodart (1867-1940), a Viennese statistician and military historian, dealt with war casualties even before the First World War.[4] During the war he worked at the Kriegsstatistische Büro. Afterwards, he tried to calculate as closely as possible the real number of casualties from each year and on each front. In around 1921 he finished his manuscript on Austro-Hungarian war losses, though it was never published. According to Bodart, 1,046,893 soldiers were dead, while 332,950 were still missing. Bodart counted half of these as dead, thus arriving at the number of 1,213,368, rounded to 1.2 million. This figure did not include prisoner of war deaths.

Edmund Glaise-Horstenau (1882-1946), a regular officer throughout First World War and an active Nazi between 1938 and 1945, headed a staff to publicize an official Austrian history of the First World War, which appeared in 1930-1938 in seven volumes.[5] This work includes tables of losses. The “losses at the front” differs slightly from the results of the lists of the AOK and Bodart (539,633 instead of 499,203 fixed by the AOK, and of 521,146 given by Bodart). Including rear areas, “Österreich-Ungarns letzter Krieg” gives a total of 1,016,200 dead, whereas Bodart counted 1,046,893. But only Bodart took into account the estimated number of deaths of those still missing in 1921.

The number of deceased prisoners of war (POWs) can be estimated roughly at 450,000: 385,000 died in Russian captivity; 35,000 in Italian POW camps; 30,000 in Serbia, especially during the great retreat of the Serbian army in autumn 1915; and 3,000 died in Romania. With exception of Italy, the data was very crude, especially that of Russia which only ranged until the beginning of November 1917.[6]

[Note: Editing in progress. Y'all come back, now... y'hear?]
« Last Edit: March 22, 2020, 09:32:42 PM by Bill Chapman »