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Author Topic: Oswald's sack in the Sniper's nest.  (Read 76180 times)

Offline Walt Cakebread

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Re: Oswald's sack in the Sniper's nest.
« Reply #480 on: March 18, 2020, 09:39:15 PM »
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If you post the picture that you believe reads 2.19 would be happy to review it. The evidence was entered by Montgomery and Johnson in a document stating 3.20pm. You think it likely took them an hour to write up?

One of our shadow experts should be able to clear it up surely from the Allen photos.

The photos of Montgomery Leaving the TSBD with the huge paper bag have been posted many times in this forum..... A couple of them show Montgomery's watch.

It hasn't been long ago that the time indicated was discussed .....

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Re: Oswald's sack in the Sniper's nest.
« Reply #480 on: March 18, 2020, 09:39:15 PM »


Offline Jack Nessan

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Re: Oswald's sack in the Sniper's nest.
« Reply #481 on: March 18, 2020, 09:44:21 PM »
Perhaps Jack missed this? Anyone else want to offer an opinion?

Day returned to the TSBD at the same time the bag was being transported by Montgomery at 3:00. Day states he took the bag "over" to the tape  room not "down" to the tape room. His estimate of time and his return perfectly coincides with the bag being seen in front of the TSBD.

Mr. DAY. I went back to the School Book Depository and stayed there. It was around three that I got back, and I was in that building until about 6, directing the other officers as to what we needed in the way of photographs and some drawing, and so forth.

Mr. DAY. On the first floor of the Texas School Book Depository, and I noticed from their wrapping bench there was paper and tape of a similar--the tape was of the same width as this. I took the bag over and tried it, and I noticed that the tape was the same width as on the bag.



Offline Walt Cakebread

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Re: Oswald's sack in the Sniper's nest.
« Reply #482 on: March 18, 2020, 09:45:13 PM »
Day returned to the TSBD at the same time the bag was being transported by Montgomery at 3:00. Day states he took the bag "over" to the tape  room not "down" to the tape room. His estimate of time and his return perfectly coincides with the bag being seen in front of the TSBD.

Mr. DAY. I went back to the School Book Depository and stayed there. It was around three that I got back, and I was in that building until about 6, directing the other officers as to what we needed in the way of photographs and some drawing, and so forth.

Mr. DAY. On the first floor of the Texas School Book Depository, and I noticed from their wrapping bench there was paper and tape of a similar--the tape was of the same width as this. I took the bag over and tried it, and I noticed that the tape was the same width as on the bag.

Mr. BELIN. Did you find anything else up in the southeast corner of the sixth floor? We have talked about the rifle, we have talked about the shells, we have talked about the chicken bones and the lunch sack and the pop bottle by that second pair of windows. Anything else?
Mr. JOHNSON. Yes, sir. We found this brown paper sack or case. It was made out of heavy wrapping paper. Actually, it looked similar to the paper that those books was wrapped in. It was just a long narrow paper bag.
Mr. BELIN. Where was this found?
Mr. JOHNSON. Right in the corner of the building.
Mr. BELIN. On what floor?
Mr. JOHNSON. Sixth floor.
Mr. BELIN. Which corner?
Mr. JOHNSON. Southeast corner.
Mr. BELIN. Do you know who found it?
Mr. JOHNSON. I know that the first I saw of it, L. D. Montgomery, my partner, picked it up off the floor, and it was folded up, and he unfolded it.
--------------------------------------------------------
Mr. BALL. Where was the paper sack?
Mr. MONTGOMERY. Let's see--the paper sack--I don't recall for sure if it was on the floor or on the box, but I know it was just there----one of those pictures might show exactly where it was.
Mr. BALL. I don't have a picture of the paper sack.
Mr. MONTGOMERY. You don't? Well, it was there--I can't recall for sure if it was on one of the boxes or on the floor there.
Mr. BALL. It was over in what corner?
Mr. MONTGOMERY. It would be the southeast corner of the building there where the shooting was.
Mr. BALL. Did you turn the sack over to anybody or did you pick it up?
Mr. MONTGOMERY. Yes---let's see Lieutenant Day and Detective Studebaker came up and took pictures and everything, and then we took a Dr. Pepper bottle and that sack that we found that looked like the rifle was wrapped up in.
................
Mr. MONTGOMERY. Right over here is where we found that long piece of paper that looked like a sack, that the rifle had been in.
Mr. BALL. Does that have a number--that area--where you found that long piece of paper?
Mr. MONTGOMERY. It's No. 2 right here.
Mr. BALL. You found the sack in the area marked 2 on Exhibit J to the Studebaker deposition. Did you pick the sack up?
Mr. MONTGOMERY. Which sack are we talking about now?
Mr. BALL. The paper sack?
Mr. MONTGOMERY. The small one or the larger one?
Mr. BALL. The larger one you mentioned that was in position 2.
Mr. MONTGOMERY. Yes.
Mr. BALL. You picked it up?
Mr. MONTGOMERY. Wait just a minute no; I didn't pick it up. I believe Mr. Studebaker did. We left it laying right there so they could check it for prints.
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Mr. BALL. Now, did you at any time see any paper sack around there?
Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes sir.
Mr. BALL. Where?
Mr. STUDEBAKER. Storage room there - in, the southeast corner of the building folded.
Mr. BALL. In the southeast corner of the building?
Mr. STUDEBAKER. It was a paper - I don't know what it was.
Mr. BALL. And it was folded, you say?
Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes.
Mr. BALL. Where was it with respect to the three boxes of which the top two were Rolling Readers?
Mr. STUDEBAKER. Directly east.
Mr. BALL. There is a corner there, isn't it?
Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes, sir; in the southeast corner.
Mr. BALL. It was in the southeast corner?
Mr. STUDEBAKER. I drew that box in for somebody over at the FBI that said you wanted it. It is in one of those pictures - one of the shots after the duplicate shot.
Mr. BALL. Let's mark this picture "Exhibit F."
(Instrument marked by the reporter as "Studebaker Exhibit F," for identification.)
Mr. BALL. Do you know who took that picture?
Mr. STUDEBAKER. No; I don't.
Mr. BALL. Do you recognize the diagram?
Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Did you draw the diagram?
Mr. STUDEBAKER. I drew a diagram in there for the FBI, somebody from the FBI called me down - I can't think of his name, and he wanted an approximate location of where the paper was found.
Mr. BALL. Does that show the approximate location?
Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes.
Mr. BALL. Where you have the dotted lines?
Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes.
....
Mr. BALL. Now, how big was this paper.that you saw - you saw the wrapper - tell me about how big that paper bag was - how long was it?
Mr. STUDEBAKER. It was about, I would say, 3 1/2 to 4 feet long.
Mr. BALL. The paper bag?
Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes.
Mr. BALL. And how wide was it? Approximately 8 inches.
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Mr. BELIN. Did you see anything else in the southeast corner?
Mr. BREWER. There was a paper, relatively long paper sack there.
Mr. BELIN. Where was that?
Mr. BREWER. It was there In the southeast corner.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mr. BELIN. What other kind of a sack was found?
Mr. DAY. A homemade sack, brown paper with 3-inch tape found right in the corner, the southeast corner of the building near where the slugs were found.
Mr. McCLOY. Near where the hulls were found?
Mr. DAY. Near where the hulls. What did I say?
Mr. McCLOY. Slugs.
Mr. DAY. Hulls.
......
Mr. BELIN. Where was the sack found with relation to the pipes and that box?
Mr. DAY. Between the sack and the south wall, which would be the wall at the top of the picture as shown here.
Mr. BELIN. You mean between--you said the sack.
Mr. DAY. I mean the pipe. The sack was between the pipe and the wall at the top of the picture.
Mr. BELIN. That wall at the top of the picture would be the east wall, would it not?
Mr. DAY. Yes, sir; laying parallel to the south wall.
Mr. BELIN. Did the sack--was it folded over in any way or just lying flat, if you remember?
Mr. DAY. It was folded over with the fold next to the pipe, to the best of my knowledge.
Mr. BELIN. I will now hand you what has been marked as Commission Exhibit 626 and ask you to state if you know what this is, and also appears to be marked as Commission Exhibit 142.
Mr. DAY. This is the sack found on the sixth floor in the southeast corner of the building on November 22, 1963.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mr. BALL. Did you ever see a paper bag?
Mr. SIMS. Well, we saw some wrappings--a brown wrapping there.
Mr. BALL. Where did you see it?
Mr. SIMS. It was there by the hulls.
Mr. BALL. Was it right there near the hulls?
Mr. SIMS. As well as I remember--of course, I didn't pay too much attention at that time, but it was, I believe, by the east side of where the boxes were piled up---that would be a guess--I believe that's where it was.

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Re: Oswald's sack in the Sniper's nest.
« Reply #482 on: March 18, 2020, 09:45:13 PM »


Offline Colin Crow

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Re: Oswald's sack in the Sniper's nest.
« Reply #483 on: March 18, 2020, 11:00:11 PM »

The bag never was at the first floor wrapping table.

Day returned to the TSBD at the same time the bag was being transported by Montgomery at 3:00. Day states he took the bag "over" to the tape  room not "down" to the tape room. His estimate of time and his return perfectly coincides with the bag being seen in front of the TSBD.

Mr. DAY. I went back to the School Book Depository and stayed there. It was around three that I got back, and I was in that building until about 6, directing the other officers as to what we needed in the way of photographs and some drawing, and so forth.

Mr. DAY. On the first floor of the Texas School Book Depository, and I noticed from their wrapping bench there was paper and tape of a similar--the tape was of the same width as this. I took the bag over and tried it, and I noticed that the tape was the same width as on the bag.

So the bag was at the wrapping table as I suggested after all. At least you used the quote I provided in my post to prove my point.

The problem with using it to prove your theory about it coinciding with Montgomery leaving with it is this.....that boat don’t float.

Mr. BELIN. Did you take it down to the station with you?
Mr. DAY. I didn't take it with me. I left it with the men when I left. I left Detectives Hicks and Studebaker to bring this in with them when they brought other equipment in.
« Last Edit: March 18, 2020, 11:02:16 PM by Colin Crow »

Offline Colin Crow

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Re: Oswald's sack in the Sniper's nest.
« Reply #484 on: March 18, 2020, 11:04:29 PM »
The photos of Montgomery Leaving the TSBD with the huge paper bag have been posted many times in this forum..... A couple of them show Montgomery's watch.

It hasn't been long ago that the time indicated was discussed .....

The shadow gurus would give us a definitive answer......Ray or Charles have dabbled with that science in the past from memory.

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Re: Oswald's sack in the Sniper's nest.
« Reply #484 on: March 18, 2020, 11:04:29 PM »


Offline Colin Crow

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Re: Oswald's sack in the Sniper's nest.
« Reply #485 on: March 18, 2020, 11:22:25 PM »
Pat was mistaken. Biffles notes were taken on 11/22

Do you have anyone that mentions Biffle or anything like the event he claimed. Who were the guys all looking at the bag when the rifle was found? Does anyone even mention Biffle there at that time? It is an uncorroborated statement not taken under oath and it’s all you got.

Offline Gary Craig

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Re: Oswald's sack in the Sniper's nest.
« Reply #486 on: March 19, 2020, 01:28:54 AM »





~snip~

Mr. BALL. How long did you stay at the Texas School Book Depository after you found the rifle?
Mr. FRITZ. After he told me about this man almost, I left immediately after he told me that

~snip~

Mr. TRULY. And there were other officers with him. Chief Lumpkin stepped over and told Captain Fritz that I had something that I wanted to tell him.
Mr. BELIN. All right. And then what happened
Mr. TRULY. So Captain Fritz left the men he was with and walked over about 8 or 10 feet and said, "What is it, Mr. Truly," or words to that effect.
And I told him about this boy missing and gave him his address and telephone number and general description. And he says, "Thank you, Mr. Truly. We will take care of it.

~snip~

Mr. DULLES. When was the paper bag covering that apparently he brought the rifle in, was that discovered in the sixth floor about the same time?
Mr. FRITZ. No, sir; that was recovered a little later. I wasn't down there when that was found.
Mr. DULLES. It was recovered on the sixth floor, was it not?
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; I believe so. We can check here and see. I believe it was. But I wasn't there when that was recovered.

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Re: Oswald's sack in the Sniper's nest.
« Reply #486 on: March 19, 2020, 01:28:54 AM »


Offline Jack Nessan

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Re: Oswald's sack in the Sniper's nest.
« Reply #487 on: March 19, 2020, 03:16:42 AM »
Do you have anyone that mentions Biffle or anything like the event he claimed. Who were the guys all looking at the bag when the rifle was found? Does anyone even mention Biffle there at that time? It is an uncorroborated statement not taken under oath and it’s all you got.

 You are assuming they knew Biffle or anything about him. There were people all around on the 6th floor and Biffle mentions that he not only saw the bag but the detectives were discussing its purpose which Detective Johnson confirms.

Mr. JOHNSON. No; other than like I said, my partner picked it up and we unfolded it and it appeared to be about the same shape as a rifle case would be. In other words, we made the remark that that is what he probably brought it in.
That is why, the reason we saved it.