Do You "Buy" Nosenko's Explanation For Why LHO Was Allowed To Stay In The USSR?

[Thomas Graves]

Steve, thank you for presenting details I was unaware of. until reading your post. Despite taking into consideration the CIA is "a hall of mirrors," my opinion has been based on taking details in Nosenko's obituary at face value. About a month before he died, several CIA officers visited Nosenko at the direction of the DCI and presented him with an award for his sacrifice and service to the U.S. I won't rule out that the CIA position is the opposite, and the visit and long overdue praise of Nosenko was actually intended to send a disinfo message to perceived adversaries, but it seems at that late date, highly unlikely.

sigh ...Tom, Tom, Tom ,

Aren't you ever going to read that book, Spy Wars, by  (Lone Nutter) Tennent H. Bagley I told you about?

No, because you don't want to be confused by the facts? 

You fervently want to believe the CIA was evil, evil, evil and the KGB was a virtual humanitarian organization by comparison?

Too many Russian names?

Okay then, how about reading his 2014 35-page PDF, Ghosts of the Spy Wars, in which he exposes one of those wishful-thinking Nosenko-lovers (or perhaps KGB mole?), Leonard "I Have No Experience In Counterintelligence" McCoy?

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/08850607.2014.962362

--  MWT 

[Thomas Graves]

Steve M.,

Have you actually read Bagley's Spy Wars?

It doesn't sound like it.

Facts:

In 1962, James Angleton (for whom Tennent H. Bagley did not work) asked Bagley (who at that time still believed KGB "lieutenant colonel" Yuri Nosenko was a true defector) to read Anatoliy Golitsyn's top-secret file.

Golitsyn had defected to the U.S. on December 15, 1961, about six months before Nosenko "walked in" in Geneva.

When he read it, Bagley realized that everything Nosenko had just told him and (probable mole, imho) George Kisevalter in Geneva not only implausibly overlapped what Golitsyn had already told CIA, but CONTRADICTED it ... and therefore, and especially in light of the fact that Golitsyn had already given Angleton some good leads on moles both here and abroad (U.S.: Army code clerk "Jack" as well as Edward Ellis Smith and someone in the Soviet Russia Division SMITH had helped the KGB to recruit in 1957) and triple-agents here and abroad (U.S.: Kulak and Polyakov) ... Bagley realized that Nosenko MUST be a false defector.

Interestingly, Bagley convinced Angleton of this, not the other way around.

And he was right.

Angleton and Bagley trusted Anatoliy Golitsyn.

So do I, and I'll tell you why if you really, really want to know (hint: I has to do with what I alluded to, above -- Golitsyn's "production" -- his uncovering of KGB moles and triple-agents, some in the U.S. but mostly in other countries ... like France and Britain.)

(In Geneva, Nosenko told Bagley and Kisevalter in that under no circumstances was he going to defect to the U.S. -- he was going back to his loving "wife" and "ill daughter" in Moscow, "and please, please, please -- don't try to contact me there -- maybe I'll contact YOU at some point in the future if you tell me how to do it.")

Factoid: Golitsyn predicted that the USSR would break up, and said it would do so intentionally in order make us drop our guard.

I give you the ill-advised (by Michael McFaul) 2009 "Reset," Anna Chapman and the Eleven Dwarfs Spy Ring (finally rolled up in 2010), Marina Butina and her U.S.-based handlers, Brexit, the GRU's hacking of DNC's emails and distribution of same through Putin's agent Julian Assange, and "useful idiot" (or worse) President Donald John Trump, etc.

With very few exceptions, the adage "Once in the KGB, always in the KGB" is spot on.

Why in the world would you trust what some "former" KGB dude in Belarus said about anything, or what Nechiporenko, Kostikov, Yatskov and Leonov said about "Oswald" in Mexico City?

Yep. Leonov, Nikolai. The KGB lieutenant colonel (and mentor to Raul Castro and Che) whose diplomatic cover was "Third Secretary and Assistant Cultural Attache" at the Soviet embassy (not the consulate) who claimed in the 1990s that Oswald had showed up at the embassy on SUNDAY, SEPTEMBER 29 when they were already playing a volleyball game, and that he got all emotional and brandished a revolver as they were talking one-on-one in Leonov's office ... one day after "Oswald" had supposedly done exactly the same thing at the consulate.

LOL

Read Riebling's book and Bagley's PDF as well, lad.

--  MWT 

PS  Please remember that Nosenko originally claimed that the KGB not only didn't interview the Marine Corps radar operator, it didn't MONITOR him, either.

Question:  How much drinking did Nosenko do during the three years or so he was subjected to "harsh, solitary-confinement interrogation" (not at the insistence of Angleton or Bagley, but of Soviet Russia Division's chief, David Murphy)?

Answer: None.

Bagley said Nosenko did drink heavily in Geneva in 1962, and for a few months in the U.S. before he was "incarcerated," but that he never slurred his more-than- adequate English and never appeared to him to be drunk. Their six meetings in Geneva were tape recorded, btw ...

Steve M.,

It's been a couple of hours, now.

Have you run away yet again?

Are you afraid to debate?

Are you afraid you might learn something?

LOL

--  MWT 

[Tom Scully]

Gift horse : would you like some assistance? :

I can think of no better versed, "MW" to ask about this segment of the wikipedia page devoted to Nosenko, than you.:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yuri_Nosenko#Concerns_that_Nosenko_was_a_double_agent

Confining your consideration of, and reaction to only the segment I linked to, do you agree it is chock full of detail, but a difficult read?

What do you regard as the strengths and weaknesses of what is presented? The "ten minute, finger wiggling" particularly stood out, but is it vital  to overall understanding? As the former US Navy officer Bob Harward, who was a contender for Mike Flynn's NSA position after Mike suddenly could no longer come to the orifice, allegedly said, "this (job as Trump's NSA advisor) is a **** sandwich."

So, the dilemma seems to be the same as it ever was.... "I would not want to be a member of any club that would have me (as a member). Tom, have you had any direct influence on what is displayed in the section of the wiki page I linked to? What edits would you prefer to be attempted? Can and will you do them or would you be willing to direct me making the edits you believe would improve the readability and accuracy of that page segment? I'll request supporting links from you but I am willing to do it entirely your way. I will examine the pertinent history of prior edit suggestions and objections on that article's talk page and bring them to your attention, but again, I would be happy to edit entirely at your direction after advising you of what has been challenged in the past.

My motivation is to present a well supported reference segment on Nosenko and this will reflect on CIA and FBI, and to observe and gauge the source and insistence of pushback that changes to the Nosenko page might elicit. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Yuri_Nosenko

sigh ...Tom, Tom, Tom ,

Aren't you ever going to read that book, Spy Wars, by  (Lone Nutter) Tennent H. Bagley I told you about?

No, because you don't want to be confused by the facts? 

You fervently want to believe the CIA was evil, evil, evil and the KGB was a virtual humanitarian organization by comparison?

Too many Russian names?

Okay then, how about reading his 2014 35-page PDF, Ghosts of the Spy Wars, in which he exposes one of those wishful-thinking Nosenko-lovers (or perhaps KGB mole?), Leonard "I Have No Experience In Counterintelligence" McCoy?

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/08850607.2014.962362

--  MWT 

MWT : Nah !

Gift horse : OK, got it! You'll do it your way.....

[Thomas Graves]

Gift horse : would you like some assistance? :

MWT : Nah !

Gift horse : OK, got it! You'll do it your way.....

Tom,

If the flesh is willing and time permits, I will edit about ten Wikipedia articles that have been written over the years on Angleton, Bagley (is there one?), Nosenko, Kulak (Fedora), Polyakov (Top Hat), Golitsyn, Roger Hollis, et al., so that readers can get Bagley's and Angleton's and Newton "Scotty" Miler's and William Sullivan's, el al's "take" on KGB "active measures counterintelligence  operations," and how they have been interwoven since 1959 with Sun Tzu-like "strategic deception counterintelligence operations" to create The Sting-like situations in the U.S. and our allies' countries.

Now, if you're too lazy to read Spy Wars or if the thought of doing so gives you too much angst, perhaps you will read those articles when I'm finished and you, too, will finally start to understand the existential threat to our Democratic Republic KGB-boy Vladimir Putin and his ilk represent.

Problem is, by then it will probably be too late, because right now it appears that our country is ... lost.

--  MWT 

PS  When Burisma's hacked emails and documents (some of which will most certainly be forged, like the one that led Comey to prematurely close down the Clinton investigation) emerge on social media sometime between now on the election, will you believe them and start chanting "Lock them up! Lock them up!" ... or does your "class warfare" paradigm require that you do so, already?

[Jerry Freeman]

Found this as a side issue...[in some declassified stuff]
Sergy Alexandrovech Uslov [sic]
https://www.archives.gov/files/research/jfk/releases/2018/docid-32255901.pdf