JFK Assassination Forum
JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate => JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate => Topic started by: Thomas Graves on January 11, 2020, 11:01:21 PM
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From David Wise's half-true book Molehunt:
Chapter 11: AEFOXTROT
[Probable mole per MWT] George Kisevalter had greased the line.
The address in Manhattan that he had given to Yuri Nosenko before they [Nosenko, Kisevalter, and Tennent H. Bagley] parted in Geneva in [June] 1962 belonged to an agency asset. If anything came in to that address from abroad, signed by "Alex," it would mean that Nosenko was trying to recontact the CIA.
But Kisevalter did not trust even the best communications arrangements. He tested the link from time to time. They might never again hear from Nosenko, but if he did send a cable, a postcard, or a letter to the Manhattan address, it had to work.
"We had the line greased. I would send a cable to COS, Copenhagen. 'Send cable to following address in New York.' I sent periodic messages from Copenhagen, Geneva, and other places to keep the line activated. And to time it -- how soon would we know the message had arrived?" The timing was important, because the CIA was to meet Nosenko, in whatever city he was, under the movie marquee beginning with the highest letter of the alphabet three days after he sent the cable to the New York address.
At Langley, there had been changes since Nosenko's first meeting with the CIA in June 1962. Howard Osborn, who had replaced Jack Maury as chief of the Soviet division, had in turn been succeeded [a few months later] in 1963 by David E. Murphy. In the fall of 1962, Pete Bagley had come back from Switzerland and joined the division as a counterintelligence officer. Having been shown the Golitsin file by Angleton, he was now persuaded that Nosenko was a plant, a dispatched agent of the KGB.
Late in January 1964, Yuri Nosenko returned to Geneva with the Soviet disarmament delegation. "A cable came in to New York," Kisevalter said. "I found out within hours. I flew to Geneva and Bagley flew in separately."
"Bagley met him [Nosenko] under the marquee of the movie theater in Geneva. He gave Nosenko a note with the address of the safe house. We went to a different safe house from the one we used in 1962."
And so the first of half a dozen meetings in the new safe house began. Nosenko did not know, of course, that one of the two CIA case officers he was meeting with -- Pete Bagley -- now believed him to be a Soviet plant.
It was only two months after the Kennedy assassination. Lyndon Johnson was in the White House, and the Warren Commission, which Johnson had appointed to investigate the murder of President Kennedy, was about to begin hearing the first of 552 witnesses.
The tragedy in Dallas was on everyone's mind, but what Nosenko now told Kisevalter and Bagley staggered the two CIA men. He had, he assured them, personally handled Lee Harvey Oswald's case [and his KGB file four times before and after the assassination] when the former Marine arrived in Moscow and asked to [be allowed to] remain in the Soviet Union.
"Oswald came up almost immediately," Kisevalter recalled. "We questioned Nosenko about every detail on Oswald." What Nosenko told the two CIA men was that the KGB had decided it had no interest in Oswald. And Nosenko added that he was the official who ordered that Oswald be told he would have to leave when his visa expired.
When Oswald then attempted suicide, Nosenko continued, his decision to order Oswald to leave the Soviet Union was overruled by other officials outside the KGB who had decided it would be best, under the circumstances, to let Oswald stay. According to Kisevalter, when Nosenko was asked why the Soviets had reversed themselves, he replied: "Because he tried to commit suicide. There would only be adverse publicity if he tried it again." As Nosenko later explained it to a congressional committee, the Soviets concluded that if Oswald did succeed in killing himself, the reaction in the press would harm "the warming of Soviet-American relations."
LOL
If the Ruskies were so afraid Oswald would try to commit suicide again, why then didn't they just pronounce him Persona Non Grata, bundle him up, and take him to the American Embassy? Instead, they let the Marine Corps radar operator, who had monitored the U-2 spy plane and knew about the marines' new height-finding radar, etc, etc, stay there for two-and-a-half years ...
-- MWT ;)
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From David Wise's half-true book Molehunt:
So at least half of it is not true?When Oswald then attempted suicide, Nosenko continued, his decision to order Oswald to leave the Soviet Union was overruled by other officials outside the KGB who had decided it would be best, under the circumstances, to let Oswald stay. As Nosenko later explained it to a congressional committee, the Soviets concluded that if Oswald did succeed in killing himself, the reaction in the press would harm "the warming of Soviet-American relations."
"the warming of Soviet-American relations." :D "Suicide"--- another red herring [no pun intended]
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"... the warming of Soviet-American relations." :D
"Suicide"--- another red herring
Freeman,
You're all for the warming of Russia - U.S. relations, aren't you?
Kinda like Michael McFaul was in 2009, even though the former had waged all-out cyber war on Estonia in 2007, and had invaded West-leaning Georgia in 2008?
-- MWT ;)
PS Your reply was a bit mysterioso, as usual. You do believe, don't you (oh gullible JFK Assassination Researcher, you) that false-defector Yuri Nosenko was telling the truth when he said the Politburo decided to let U-2 radar operator Oswald stay because they were afraid that if they didn't, he'd embarrass them by killing himself?
LOL
You do believe, don't you (oh gullible JFK Assassination Researcher, you), that false defector Yuri Nosenko was telling the truth when he said the KGB didn't even interview U-2 radar operator Oswald?
LOL
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You're all for the warming of Russia - U.S. relations, aren't you?
Oh..I have done my part Tommy. 20 yrs ago I married a Russian speaking lady [from the former Soviet Union] The only 'relation' I give a crap about anymore.
Now you do remember wannabe Queen Hillary? She won't ever go away it seems.
(https://static1.fjcdn.com/comments/Oh+that+hillary+is+so+clever+too+_ebc7e0e1f8f696c65369a2c39daeaa91.jpg)
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From David Wise's half-true book Molehunt:
Chapter 11: AEFOXTROT
[Probable mole per MWT] George Kisevalter had greased the line.
The address in Manhattan that he had given to Yuri Nosenko before they [Nosenko, Kisevalter, and Tennent H. Bagley] parted in Geneva in [June] 1962 belonged to an agency asset. If anything came in to that address from abroad, signed by "Alex," it would mean that Nosenko was trying to recontact the CIA.
But Kisevalter did not trust even the best communications arrangements. He tested the link from time to time. They might never again hear from Nosenko, but if he did send a cable, a postcard, or a letter to the Manhattan address, it had to work.
"We had the line greased. I would send a cable to COS, Copenhagen. 'Send cable to following address in New York.' I sent periodic messages from Copenhagen, Geneva, and other places to keep the line activated. And to time it -- how soon would we know the message had arrived?" The timing was important, because the CIA was to meet Nosenko, in whatever city he was, under the movie marquee beginning with the highest letter of the alphabet three days after he sent the cable to the New York address.
At Langley, there had been changes since Nosenko's first meeting with the CIA in June 1962. Howard Osborn, who had replaced Jack Maury as chief of the Soviet division, had in turn been succeeded [a few months later] in 1963 by David E. Murphy. In the fall of 1962, Pete Bagley had come back from Switzerland and joined the division as a counterintelligence officer. Having been shown the Golitsin file by Angleton, he was now persuaded that Nosenko was a plant, a dispatched agent of the KGB.
Late in January 1964, Yuri Nosenko returned to Geneva with the Soviet disarmament delegation. "A cable came in to New York," Kisevalter said. "I found out within hours. I flew to Geneva and Bagley flew in separately."
"Bagley met him [Nosenko] under the marquee of the movie theater in Geneva. He gave Nosenko a note with the address of the safe house. We went to a different safe house from the one we used in 1962."
And so the first of half a dozen meetings in the new safe house began. Nosenko did not know, of course, that one of the two CIA case officers he was meeting with -- Pete Bagley -- now believed him to be a Soviet plant.
It was only two months after the Kennedy assassination. Lyndon Johnson was in the White House, and the Warren Commission, which Johnson had appointed to investigate the murder of President Kennedy, was about to begin hearing the first of 552 witnesses.
The tragedy in Dallas was on everyone's mind, but what Nosenko now told Kisevalter and Bagley staggered the two CIA men. He had, he assured them, personally handled Lee Harvey Oswald's case [and his KGB file four times before and after the assassination] when the former Marine arrived in Moscow and asked to [be allowed to] remain in the Soviet Union.
"Oswald came up almost immediately," Kisevalter recalled. "We questioned Nosenko about every detail on Oswald." What Nosenko told the two CIA men was that the KGB had decided it had no interest in Oswald. And Nosenko added that he was the official who ordered that Oswald be told he would have to leave when his visa expired.
When Oswald then attempted suicide, Nosenko continued, his decision to order Oswald to leave the Soviet Union was overruled by other officials outside the KGB who had decided it would be best, under the circumstances, to let Oswald stay. According to Kisevalter, when Nosenko was asked why the Soviets had reversed themselves, he replied: "Because he tried to commit suicide. There would only be adverse publicity if he tried it again." As Nosenko later explained it to a congressional committee, the Soviets concluded that if Oswald did succeed in killing himself, the reaction in the press would harm "the warming of Soviet-American relations."
LOL
If the Ruskies were so afraid Oswald would try to commit suicide again, why then didn't they just pronounce him Persona Non Grata, bundle him up, and take him to the American Embassy? Instead, they let the Marine Corps radar operator, who had monitored the U-2 spy plane and knew about the marines' new height-finding radar, etc, etc, stay there for two-and-a-half years ...
-- MWT ;)
The KGB senior officials ordered that he be sent him to Minsk, away from Moscow, where he could be monitored - they suspected early on at that time he was might be some sort of intelligence agent - and watched while being kept AWAY from the western press. If Oswald tried to kill himself or harm others the story could be contained and suppressed.
While he was in Minsk working on his book, "Oswald's Tale", Norman Mailer's he interviewed numerous KGB agents and officials (over two dozen KGB agents who were assigned to monitor Oswald in Minsk) and pointed out that many had gone through the Stalin era where it was dangerous to draw attention to oneself. These officials learned to follow orders and keep quiet. And all of them said that Oswald was considered an oddball and that they wanted nothing to do with him. He was a useless nuisance that they had to spend time on watching. By the way, these interviews were all done well before Putin came to power and when the Soviet system had utterly collapsed.
But like the "CIA killed JFK" conspiracy believers you will just say these were all Soviet lies (even though Mailer's interviews were done after the collapse of the Soviet Union). Conspiracists will do what conspiracists do: believe that up is down and down is up and everything indicates their conspiracy is true.
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The KGB senior officials ordered that he be sent him to Minsk, away from Moscow, where he could be monitored - they suspected early on at that time he was might be some sort of intelligence agent - and watched while being kept AWAY from the western press. If Oswald tried to kill himself or harm others the story could be contained and suppressed.
While he was in Minsk working on his book, "Oswald's Tale", Norman Mailer interviewed numerous KGB agents and officials (over two dozen KGB agents who were assigned to monitor Oswald in Minsk) and pointed out that many had gone through the Stalin era where it was dangerous to draw attention to oneself. These officials learned to follow orders and keep quiet. And all of them said that Oswald was considered an oddball and that they wanted nothing to do with him. He was a useless nuisance that they had to spend time on watching. By the way, these interviews were all done well before Putin came to power and when the Soviet system had utterly collapsed.
But like the "CIA killed JFK" conspiracy believers you will just say these were all Soviet lies (even though Mailer's interviews were done after the collapse of the Soviet Union). Conspiracists will do what conspiracists do: believe that up is down and down is up and everything indicates their conspiracy is true.
Steve M.,
Have you read Tennent H. Bagley's 2007 book Spy Wars, yet?
If you had, then you'd know that from 1959 on, many KGB officers who weren't in the brand new, top-secret departments known as Department D of the First Chief Directorate and Department 14 of the Second Chief Directorate were fed false information so that they could unwittingly help those two "deception"-based departments accomplish their operations against U.S. counterintelligence in particular.
What's more and in regards to your preaching that "the USSR was totally collapsed" when Mailer was there, one must remember that said "collapse" was predicted by true-defector Anatoliy Golitsyn (who had helped the Politburo and/or the KGB devise its long term strategies when he was working at the KGB "think tank" in Moscow) who said that it was a ruse to get the West to lower its guard.
(Fast-forwarding a bit, you do remember the "Anna Chapman and the Eleven Dwarfs" spy ring that was uncovered in 2010? Marina Butina and the Ruskie dude who was handling her? How about the GRU's hacking of the DNC's emails and feeding them to Putin's agent, Julian Assange, to distribute at critical points during the campaign? Paul Manfort's business partner, GRU agent Konstantin Kilimnik, who whispered in Manafort's ear that it was really the Ukrainians who had hacked the DNC's server, so that it could blame it on Russia or some-such thing? Etcetera, ad nauseam ...)
LOL
Wake up, Neo.
Question: If the KGB thought Oswald was a "dangle," why then didn't it interview him to see what he had to say, and to get a feel for whether or not he was "turnable"?
Why did Nosenko claim the KGB didn't even interview the Marine Corps radar operator? How plausible do you think that is, Steve M?
And why did Nosenko tell his CIA interviewers/interrogators that the reason the Politburo let him stay was because "... uhh, it was afraid that if we told him again that he was gonna hafta leave, that he would try to kill himself, again, and that would hurt our warming relations with America!" ?
LOL
Don't run away, now, like you always do, Steve M.
https://archive.org/details/SpyWarsMolesMysteriesAndDeadlyGames/page/n3
-- MWT ;)
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From Posner's book we have this account by Nosenko (and other Soviet officials) on why they decided to allow Oswald to stay:
Nosenko: "The Foreign Ministry decision on what to do with Oswald was really influenced by the larger political climate," says Nosenko. On September 26 and 27, when Oswald had traveled to Europe for his defection, President Eisenhower and Khrushchev were meeting in the Maryland woods in what became known as "the spirit of Camp David." After Khrushchev's return, the Soviets were acutely aware of how the treatment of visiting Americans might affect the new relationship between the countries. Because of his suicide attempt, Oswald gained the attention of the USSR's leaders. His KGB file shows that senior Politburo member Anastas Mikoyan personally gave order that Oswald's request for asylum be given careful consideration.
Nosenko again: "By telling Oswald that he had to leave he was so unstable he might try and succeed in killing himself. Then we would be criticized for a KGB murder of an American tourist. If we forced him onto a plane for deportation, there would still be the image of a student being manhandled by Soviet security forces. Considering the options, we decided to let him stay. We could decide where he worked and lived, and maintain surveillance over him to ensure he did not cause any trouble or was not an American sleeper agent."
Some of that sounds questionable to me. But the idea of forcing Oswald to return to the US - against his will - must have been of concern for the Soviets.
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In regards to my last post, let me say three things:
1) My hero, Tennent H. Bagley, who wrote the eye-opening book Spy Wars and the 35-page PDF Ghosts of the Spy Wars and the book Spymaster (about former KGB officer Sergey Kondrachev), was a "Lone Nutter" regarding the JFK assassination, i.e., he didn't believe the Ruskies had anything to do with it
2) Edward Ellis Smith (look him up) and some unknown person in CIA's Soviet Russia Division's Operations Department or it's Reports and Requirements Department whom he had probably helped KGB to recruit in 1957, were two never-uncovered-in -their-lifetimes Ruskie spies in U.S. intelligence.
3) Why did false-defector Yuri Nosenko claim in Geneva in January, 1964, that he had been in charge of Oswald's case when he arrived in the USSR as a tourist, and astoundingly claim that he'd been in charge of Oswald's file four times before and after the assassination?
My theory: Although Angleton and Bagley and Helms already knew Nosenko was fake, given the circumstances -- Nosenko shows up again in Geneva about seven weeks after the assassination and wants to leave "his family" behind in Russia and defect to the U.S. -- Helms had no choice but to let him in to see what he would say about the assassination, thereby giving Nosenko an opportunity to discredit everything true-defector Anatoliy Golitsyn was telling CIA and trying to tell the heavilly penetrated FBI about moles and triple-agents in the U.S.'s and in several of our allies' intelligence agencies and governments.
In other words, Nosenko's "information" about Oswald was just an intriguing "icebreaker," if you will, that let him get his false-defector feet "in the door" so that an "inside man/outside man" game could be played, with devastating results, against CIA counterintligence.
And, Wa-Lah, I give you oodles and gobs of tinfoil hat conspiracy theories like, "That evil James Angleton sent Oswald to the USSR as a "dangle" to help uncover "Popov's Mole" (ironically, Edward Ellis Smith and/or the CIA officer he probably helped the KGB to recruit) and then had the gall to use him as a patsy in the JFK assassination!," and ... and ... and ..."THERE WERE TWO OSWALDS AND TWO MARGUERITES, I TELL YOU!", and ...
And I give you the implausibly long-running moles Aldrich Ames in CIA, and Robert Hanssen in the FBI.
And I give you a dumbed-down, paranoiac body politic.
And last but not least, I give you KGB-boy Putin's "useful idiot" ... Donald Trump!
-- MWT ;)
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In regards to my last post, let me say three things:
1) My hero, Tennent H. Bagley, ....
My theory: Although Angleton and Bagley and Helms already knew Nosenko was fake, given the circumstances -- Nosenko shows up again in Geneva about seven weeks after the assassination and wants to leave "his family" behind in Russia and defect to the U.S. -- Helms had no choice but to let him in to see what he would say about the assassination, thereby giving Nosenko an opportunity to discredit everything true-defector Anatoliy Golitsyn was telling CIA and trying to tell the heavilly penetrated FBI about moles and triple-agents in the U.S.'s and in several of our allies' intelligence agencies and governments.
In other words, Nosenko's "information" about Oswald was just an intriguing "icebreaker," if you will, that let him get his false-defector feet "in the door" so that an "inside man/outside man" game could be played, with devastating results, against CIA counterintligence.....
And I give you the implausibly long-running moles Aldrich Ames in CIA, and Robert Hanssen in the FBI.
And I give you a dumbed-down, paranoiac body politic.
And last but not least, I give you KGB-boy Putin's "useful idiot" ... Donald Trump!
-- MWT ;)
I can think of no better versed, "MW" to ask about this segment of the wikipedia page devoted to Nosenko, than you.:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yuri_Nosenko#Concerns_that_Nosenko_was_a_double_agent
Confining your consideration of, and reaction to only the segment I linked to, do you agree it is chock full of detail, but a difficult read?
What do you regard as the strengths and weaknesses of what is presented? The "ten minute, finger wiggling" particularly stood out, but is it vital to overall understanding? As the former US Navy officer Bob Harward, who was a contender for Mike Flynn's NSA position after Mike suddenly could no longer come to the orifice, allegedly said, "this (job as Trump's NSA advisor) is a **** sandwich."
So, the dilemma seems to be the same as it ever was.... "I would not want to be a member of any club that would have me (as a member). Tom, have you had any direct influence on what is displayed in the section of the wiki page I linked to? What edits would you prefer to be attempted? Can and will you do them or would you be willing to direct me making the edits you believe would improve the readability and accuracy of that page segment? I'll request supporting links from you but I am willing to do it entirely your way. I will examine the pertinent history of prior edit suggestions and objections on that article's talk page and bring them to your attention, but again, I would be happy to edit entirely at your direction after advising you of what has been challenged in the past.
My motivation is to present a well supported reference segment on Nosenko and this will reflect on CIA and FBI, and to observe and gauge the source and insistence of pushback that changes to the Nosenko page might elicit. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Yuri_Nosenko
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I can think of no better versed, "MW" to ask about this segment of the wikipedia page devoted to Nosenko, than you.:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yuri_Nosenko#Concerns_that_Nosenko_was_a_double_agent
Confining your consideration of, and reaction to only the segment I linked to, do you agree it is chock full of detail, but a difficult read?
What do you regard as the strengths and weaknesses of what is presented? The "ten minute, finger wiggling" particularly stood out, but is it vital to overall understanding? As the former US Navy officer Bob Harward, who was a contender for Mike Flynn's NSA position after Mike suddenly could no longer come to the orifice, allegedly said, "this (job as Trump's NSA advisor) is a **** sandwich."
So, the dilemma seems to be the same as it ever was.... "I would not want to be a member of any club that would have me (as a member). Tom, have you had any direct influence on what is displayed in the section of the wiki page I linked to? What edits would you prefer to be attempted? Can and will you do them or would you be willing to direct me making the edits you believe would improve the readability and accuracy of that page segment? I'll request supporting links from you but I am willing to do it entirely your way. I will examine the pertinent history of prior edit suggestions and objections on that article's talk page and bring them to your attention, but again, I would be happy to edit entirely at your direction after advising you of what has been challenged in the past.
My motivation is to present a well supported reference segment on Nosenko and this will reflect on CIA and FBI, and to observe and gauge the source and insistence of pushback that changes to the Nosenko page might elicit. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Yuri_Nosenko
Tom, if all one reads about Nosenko is the Bagley account then you'll be convinced that he was a "fake" defector or triple agent (and he makes a persuasive case that he was). But if one reads the totality of evidence - the KGB files that Yeltsin gave to Clinton, the interviews that Mailer conducted with the KGB agents assigned to Oswald, and revelations by former KGB officers who defected - you'll get a fuller picture.
For example, Oleg Kalugin was the top KGB officer in the United States - he was in charge of all operations - before defecting to the United States. Russia has a death sentence on his heard head - he's accused of treason - because he revealed a number of KGB operations that he ran. BTW, Kalugin says Putin is a war criminal and fascist and needs to be removed.
Kalugin wrote this about the Nosenko defection:
(http://www.mediafire.com/convkey/91b1/bmy3qp569c5z0xvzg.jpg)
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Tom, if all one reads about Nosenko is the Bagley account then you'll be convinced that he was a "fake" defector or triple agent (and he makes a persuasive case that he was). But if one reads the totality of evidence - the KGB files that Yeltsin gave to Clinton, the interviews that Mailer conducted with the KGB agents assigned to Oswald, and revelations by former KGB officers who defected - you'll get a fuller picture.
For example, Oleg Kalugin was the top KGB officer in the United States - he was in charge of all operations - before defecting to the United States. Russia has a death penalty over his heard - he's accused of treason - because he revealed a number of KGB operations that he ran. BTW, Kalugin says Putin is a war criminal and fascist and needs to be removed.
Kalugin wrote this about the Nosenko defection:
(http://www.mediafire.com/convkey/91b1/bmy3qp569c5z0xvzg.jpg)
Steve, thank you for presenting details I was unaware of. until reading your post. Despite taking into consideration the CIA is "a hall of mirrors," my opinion has been based on taking details in Nosenko's obituary at face value. About a month before he died, several CIA officers visited Nosenko at the direction of the DCI and presented him with an award for his sacrifice and service to the U.S. I won't rule out that the CIA position is the opposite, and the visit and long overdue praise of Nosenko was actually intended to send a disinfo message to perceived adversaries, but it seems at that late date, highly unlikely.
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Tom, if all one reads about Nosenko is the Bagley account then you'll be convinced that he was a "fake" defector or triple agent (and he makes a persuasive case that he was). But if one reads the totality of evidence - the KGB files that Yeltsin gave to Clinton, the interviews that Mailer conducted with the KGB agents assigned to Oswald, and revelations by former KGB officers who defected - you'll get a fuller picture.
For example, Oleg Kalugin was the top KGB officer in the United States - he was in charge of all operations - before defecting to the United States. Russia has a death penalty over his heard - he's accused of treason - because he revealed a number of KGB operations that he ran. BTW, Kalugin says Putin is a war criminal and fascist and needs to be removed.
Kalugin wrote this about the Nosenko defection:
(http://www.mediafire.com/convkey/91b1/bmy3qp569c5z0xvzg.jpg)
Steve M.,
Haven't you read about how the Kremlin created a top-secret "KGB within the KGB" in 1959 (conservative Department D in the First Chief Directorate and risk-taking Department 14 of the Second Chief Directorate) and charged it with waging Sun Tzu-like "strategic deception counterintelligence operations" against us and our allies, and haven't you read about false-defector Yuri Nosenko and his supporting cast of triple-agents Aleksei Kulak (Fedora), Dimitri Polyakov (Top Hat), and Igor Yurchenko (Kitty Hawk), et al., in Tennent H. Bagley's 2007 book Spy Wars, and in Mark Riebling's 1994 book Wedge: The Secret War Between the FBI and CIA, and, to a lesser extent, in Bagleys 2014 35-page PDF Ghosts of the Spy Wars?
It makes no sense for a highly intelligent lad like you to be so ignorant about the KGB, so why don't you read them?
Too many Russian names?
Too complicated?
Clashes too much with what you may have read in books like Mangold's Cold Warrior and Wise's Molehunter?
LOL
(Please don't run away now like you almost always do.)
https://archive.org/details/SpyWarsMolesMysteriesAndDeadlyGames
https://archive.org/details/WedgeFromPearlHarborTo911HowTheSecretWarBetweenTheFBIAndCIAHasEndangeredNationalSecurity
https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/08850607.2014.962362
Your boy, Kalugin, was in the First Chief Directorate and had no need to know what was going on in Department 14 of the Second Chief Directorate, the counterintelligence department that sent the above-mentioned characters to us.
Bottom line: Any "former" KGB person who claims Nosenko was a true defector was either intentionally misinformed by the KGB, simply never knew, or ... gasp ... is a "post" Cold War triple-agent.
Oleg Kalugin and Oleg Gordievsky come to mind.
-- MWT ;)
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Tom, if you read the Bagley book it's difficult not to conclude that Nosenko was more than he said he was. Or less. That is he was, a ruse, a fake sent by the KGB for whatever reason; probably primarily to show they didn't recruit Oswald and therefore they were not connected to the assassination.
The Bagley book is here: https://cdn.preterhuman.net/texts/government_information/intelligence_and_espionage/Spy.Wars.pdf
For example (this is in the book), the CIA interrogators, including a KGB officer who had defected and was working with them, asked Nosenko to write a cable to KGB headquarters to show that he knew the simple basics of his job. As in: "Show us how you'd write a cable, please". According to Bagley he didn't even know these basics - the format, how to address it, et cetera, something any agent would know. And when asked to describe KGB headquarters - where his office was, where the main cafeteria was, how to get to it - he couldn't give any details. There were numerous other examples of his failure to explain how an agent would do simple tasks.
Then, of course, when he said the KGB never formally questioned Oswald - when the CIA knew that other American defectors were closely interrogated - alarms went off.
So there is strong evidence that he wasn't who he said he was.
But one has to include this other evidence: the KGB files given to Clinton, the interviews with Belarus KGB agents who monitored Oswald, the reports of other KGB agents who later defected - like Kalugin - who say Nosenko was a real defector that caused problems for the KGB. I think if you look at the totality of evidence you'd have to conclude that he was genuine and not a fake. Probably, as Kalugin said, an incompetent KGB agent, a drunk, a womanizer but an authentic one.
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Tom, if you read the Bagley book it's difficult not to conclude that Nosenko was more than he said he was. Or less. That is he was, a ruse, a fake sent by the KGB for whatever reason; probably primarily to show they didn't recruit Oswald and therefore they were not connected to the assassination.
The Bagley book is here: https://cdn.preterhuman.net/texts/government_information/intelligence_and_espionage/Spy.Wars.pdf
For example (this is in the book), the CIA interrogators, including a KGB officer who had defected and was working with them, asked Nosenko to write a cable to KGB headquarters to show that he knew the simple basics of his job. As in: "Show us how you'd write a cable, please". According to Bagley he didn't even know these basics - the format, how to address it, et cetera, something any agent would know. And when asked to describe KGB headquarters - where his office was, where the main cafeteria was, how to get to it - he couldn't give any details. There were numerous other examples of his failure to explain how an agent would do simple tasks.
Then, of course, when he said the KGB never formally questioned Oswald - when the CIA knew that other American defectors were closely interrogated - alarms went off.
So there is strong evidence that he wasn't who he said he was.
But one has to include this other evidence: the KGB files given to Clinton, the interviews with Belarus KGB agents who monitored Oswald, the reports of other KGB agents who later defected - like Kalugin - who say Nosenko was a real defector that caused problems for the KGB. I think if you look at the totality of evidence you'd have to conclude that he was genuine and not a fake. Probably, as Kalugin said, an incompetent KGB agent, a drunk, a womanizer but an authentic one.
Steve M.,
LOL
Have you actually read Bagley's Spy Wars?
It doesn't sound like it.
Facts:
In 1962, Angleton (for whom Bagley did NOT work) asked Bagley (who at that time still believed Nosenko was a true quasi-defector) to read Anatoliy Golitsyn's top-secret file. Golitsyn had defected to the U.S. on December 15, 1961, about six months before Nosenko "walked in" in Geneva. When he did read it, Bagley realized that everything Nosenko had just told him and (probable mole, imho) George Kisevalter in Geneva not only implausibly overlapped what Golitsyn had told CIA, but CONTRADICTED it ... and therefore Nosenko must be a false defector.
And he was right.
Bagley trusted Anatoliy Golitsyn.
So do I, and I'll tell you why if you really, really want me to. (Hint: I has to do with Golitsyn's "production," i.e., his uncovering of KGB moles and triple-agents, mostly in OTHER countries like France and Britain.)
(I say "quasi defector" because Nosenko told Bagley and Kisevalter in Geneva that under no circumstances was he going to defect to the U.S., that he was going back to his wife and daughter in Moscow, "and please, please, please don't try to contact me there -- maybe I'll contact YOU at some point in the future.")
Golitsyn predicted that the USSR would break up, and said it would do so intentionally in order make us drop our guard.
I give you the ill-advised (by Michael McFaul) 2009 "Reset," Anna Chapman and the Eleven Dwarfs Spy Ring (finally rolled up in 2010), Marina Butina and her U.S.-based handlers, Brexit, the GRU's hacking of DNC's emails and distribution of same through Putin's agent Julian Assange, and "useful idiot" (or worse) President Donald John Trump, etc.
With very few exceptions, the adage "Once in the KGB, always in the KGB" is spot on.
Why in the world would you trust what some "former" KGB dude in Belarus said about anything, or what Nechiporenko, Kostikov, Yatskov and Leonov said about "Oswald" in Mexico City?
Yep. Leonov, Nikolai. The KGB lieutenant colonel (and mentor to Raul Castro and Che) whose diplomatic cover was "Third Secretary and Assistant Cultural Attache" at the Soviet embassy (not the consulate) who claimed in the 1990s that Oswald had showed up at the embassy on SUNDAY, SEPTEMBER 29 when they were already playing a volleyball game, and that he got all emotional and brandished a revolver as they were talking one-on-one in Leonov's office ... one day after "Oswald" had supposedly done exactly the same thing at the consulate.
LOL
Read Riebling's book and Bagley's PDF as well, lad.
-- MWT ;)
PS Please remember that Nosenko originally claimed that the KGB not only didn't interview the Marine Corps radar operator, it didn't MONITOR him, either.
Question: How much drinking did Nosenko do during the three years or so he was subjected to "harsh, solitary-confinement interrogation" (at the insistence of Soviet Russia chief David Murphy, not Bagley or Angleton)?
Answer: None.
Bagley said Nosenko did drink heavily in Geneva in 1962, and for a few months in the U.S. before he was "incarcerated," but that he never slurred his more-than- adequate English and never appeared to him to be drunk. Their six meetings in Geneva were tape recorded, btw ...
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Steve, thank you for presenting details I was unaware of. until reading your post. Despite taking into consideration the CIA is "a hall of mirrors," my opinion has been based on taking details in Nosenko's obituary at face value. About a month before he died, several CIA officers visited Nosenko at the direction of the DCI and presented him with an award for his sacrifice and service to the U.S. I won't rule out that the CIA position is the opposite, and the visit and long overdue praise of Nosenko was actually intended to send a disinfo message to perceived adversaries, but it seems at that late date, highly unlikely.
sigh ...Tom, Tom, Tom ,
Aren't you ever going to read that book, Spy Wars, by (Lone Nutter) Tennent H. Bagley I told you about?
No, because you don't want to be confused by the facts?
You fervently want to believe the CIA was evil, evil, evil and the KGB was a virtual humanitarian organization by comparison?
Too many Russian names?
Okay then, how about reading his 2014 35-page PDF, Ghosts of the Spy Wars, in which he exposes one of those wishful-thinking Nosenko-lovers (or perhaps KGB mole?), Leonard "I Have No Experience In Counterintelligence" McCoy?
https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/08850607.2014.962362
-- MWT ;)
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Steve M.,
Have you actually read Bagley's Spy Wars?
It doesn't sound like it.
Facts:
In 1962, James Angleton (for whom Tennent H. Bagley did not work) asked Bagley (who at that time still believed KGB "lieutenant colonel" Yuri Nosenko was a true defector) to read Anatoliy Golitsyn's top-secret file.
Golitsyn had defected to the U.S. on December 15, 1961, about six months before Nosenko "walked in" in Geneva.
When he read it, Bagley realized that everything Nosenko had just told him and (probable mole, imho) George Kisevalter in Geneva not only implausibly overlapped what Golitsyn had already told CIA, but CONTRADICTED it ... and therefore, and especially in light of the fact that Golitsyn had already given Angleton some good leads on moles both here and abroad (U.S.: Army code clerk "Jack" as well as Edward Ellis Smith and someone in the Soviet Russia Division SMITH had helped the KGB to recruit in 1957) and triple-agents here and abroad (U.S.: Kulak and Polyakov) ... Bagley realized that Nosenko MUST be a false defector.
Interestingly, Bagley convinced Angleton of this, not the other way around.
And he was right.
Angleton and Bagley trusted Anatoliy Golitsyn.
So do I, and I'll tell you why if you really, really want to know (hint: I has to do with what I alluded to, above -- Golitsyn's "production" -- his uncovering of KGB moles and triple-agents, some in the U.S. but mostly in other countries ... like France and Britain.)
(In Geneva, Nosenko told Bagley and Kisevalter in that under no circumstances was he going to defect to the U.S. -- he was going back to his loving "wife" and "ill daughter" in Moscow, "and please, please, please -- don't try to contact me there -- maybe I'll contact YOU at some point in the future if you tell me how to do it.")
Factoid: Golitsyn predicted that the USSR would break up, and said it would do so intentionally in order make us drop our guard.
I give you the ill-advised (by Michael McFaul) 2009 "Reset," Anna Chapman and the Eleven Dwarfs Spy Ring (finally rolled up in 2010), Marina Butina and her U.S.-based handlers, Brexit, the GRU's hacking of DNC's emails and distribution of same through Putin's agent Julian Assange, and "useful idiot" (or worse) President Donald John Trump, etc.
With very few exceptions, the adage "Once in the KGB, always in the KGB" is spot on.
Why in the world would you trust what some "former" KGB dude in Belarus said about anything, or what Nechiporenko, Kostikov, Yatskov and Leonov said about "Oswald" in Mexico City?
Yep. Leonov, Nikolai. The KGB lieutenant colonel (and mentor to Raul Castro and Che) whose diplomatic cover was "Third Secretary and Assistant Cultural Attache" at the Soviet embassy (not the consulate) who claimed in the 1990s that Oswald had showed up at the embassy on SUNDAY, SEPTEMBER 29 when they were already playing a volleyball game, and that he got all emotional and brandished a revolver as they were talking one-on-one in Leonov's office ... one day after "Oswald" had supposedly done exactly the same thing at the consulate.
LOL
Read Riebling's book and Bagley's PDF as well, lad.
-- MWT ;)
PS Please remember that Nosenko originally claimed that the KGB not only didn't interview the Marine Corps radar operator, it didn't MONITOR him, either.
Question: How much drinking did Nosenko do during the three years or so he was subjected to "harsh, solitary-confinement interrogation" (not at the insistence of Angleton or Bagley, but of Soviet Russia Division's chief, David Murphy)?
Answer: None.
Bagley said Nosenko did drink heavily in Geneva in 1962, and for a few months in the U.S. before he was "incarcerated," but that he never slurred his more-than- adequate English and never appeared to him to be drunk. Their six meetings in Geneva were tape recorded, btw ...
Steve M.,
It's been a couple of hours, now.
Have you run away yet again?
Are you afraid to debate?
Are you afraid you might learn something?
LOL
-- MWT ;)
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Gift horse : would you like some assistance? :
I can think of no better versed, "MW" to ask about this segment of the wikipedia page devoted to Nosenko, than you.:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yuri_Nosenko#Concerns_that_Nosenko_was_a_double_agent
Confining your consideration of, and reaction to only the segment I linked to, do you agree it is chock full of detail, but a difficult read?
What do you regard as the strengths and weaknesses of what is presented? The "ten minute, finger wiggling" particularly stood out, but is it vital to overall understanding? As the former US Navy officer Bob Harward, who was a contender for Mike Flynn's NSA position after Mike suddenly could no longer come to the orifice, allegedly said, "this (job as Trump's NSA advisor) is a **** sandwich."
So, the dilemma seems to be the same as it ever was.... "I would not want to be a member of any club that would have me (as a member). Tom, have you had any direct influence on what is displayed in the section of the wiki page I linked to? What edits would you prefer to be attempted? Can and will you do them or would you be willing to direct me making the edits you believe would improve the readability and accuracy of that page segment? I'll request supporting links from you but I am willing to do it entirely your way. I will examine the pertinent history of prior edit suggestions and objections on that article's talk page and bring them to your attention, but again, I would be happy to edit entirely at your direction after advising you of what has been challenged in the past.
My motivation is to present a well supported reference segment on Nosenko and this will reflect on CIA and FBI, and to observe and gauge the source and insistence of pushback that changes to the Nosenko page might elicit. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Yuri_Nosenko
sigh ...Tom, Tom, Tom ,
Aren't you ever going to read that book, Spy Wars, by (Lone Nutter) Tennent H. Bagley I told you about?
No, because you don't want to be confused by the facts?
You fervently want to believe the CIA was evil, evil, evil and the KGB was a virtual humanitarian organization by comparison?
Too many Russian names?
Okay then, how about reading his 2014 35-page PDF, Ghosts of the Spy Wars, in which he exposes one of those wishful-thinking Nosenko-lovers (or perhaps KGB mole?), Leonard "I Have No Experience In Counterintelligence" McCoy?
https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/08850607.2014.962362
-- MWT ;)
MWT : Nah !
Gift horse : OK, got it! You'll do it your way.....
-
Gift horse : would you like some assistance? :
MWT : Nah !
Gift horse : OK, got it! You'll do it your way.....
Tom,
If the flesh is willing and time permits, I will edit about ten Wikipedia articles that have been written over the years on Angleton, Bagley (is there one?), Nosenko, Kulak (Fedora), Polyakov (Top Hat), Golitsyn, Roger Hollis, et al., so that readers can get Bagley's and Angleton's and Newton "Scotty" Miler's and William Sullivan's, el al's "take" on KGB "active measures counterintelligence operations," and how they have been interwoven since 1959 with Sun Tzu-like "strategic deception counterintelligence operations" to create The Sting-like situations in the U.S. and our allies' countries.
Now, if you're too lazy to read Spy Wars or if the thought of doing so gives you too much angst, perhaps you will read those articles when I'm finished and you, too, will finally start to understand the existential threat to our Democratic Republic KGB-boy Vladimir Putin and his ilk represent.
Problem is, by then it will probably be too late, because right now it appears that our country is ... lost.
-- MWT ;)
PS When Burisma's hacked emails and documents (some of which will most certainly be forged, like the one that led Comey to prematurely close down the Clinton investigation) emerge on social media sometime between now on the election, will you believe them and start chanting "Lock them up! Lock them up!" ... or does your "class warfare" paradigm require that you do so, already?
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Found this as a side issue...[in some declassified stuff]
Sergy Alexandrovech Uslov [sic]
https://www.archives.gov/files/research/jfk/releases/2018/docid-32255901.pdf