A Better Sequence (TM DVP)

[Alan Ford]

So let’s use something from 200 ft and six floors up.....agree?  That frame was something I stumbled across on a YouTube video.

Here's a start (not 200 ft but a start):



I'm still skeptical that Mr Williams seen hanging out at the SN window in bright sunlight would be confused for an elderly man with little or no hair and a plaid shirt. Am I wrong to be skeptical? Maybe!

We must also take note of this from Mr Rowland:

"Had on a plaid shirt. I think it was red and green, very bright color, that is why I remember it."

Mr Williams' shirt was not very bright. At all:

[Colin Crow]

Here's a start (not 200 ft but a start):



I'm still skeptical that Mr Williams seen hanging out at the SN window in bright sunlight would be confused for an elderly man with little or no hair and a plaid shirt. Am I wrong to be skeptical? Maybe!

We must also take note of this from Mr Rowland:

"Had on a plaid shirt. I think it was red and green, very bright color, that is why I remember it."

Mr Williams' shirt was not very bright. At all:

I accept you criticism Alan, but we can all be wrong about details from a fleeting glimpse of an apparently unimportant individual. I suggest the essential features are consistent, male, black and of thin build. How could Rowland have known that Williams lunch remnants would be originally discovered in the SN? The time he claims for the sightings are consistent too, when all evidence in analysed.

[Walt Cakebread]

Mr. BALL - Where did you stand?
Mr. JARMAN - I was standing over to the right in front of the building going toward the west.
Mr. BALL - Were you on the sidewalk or curb?
Mr. JARMAN - On the sidewalk.
Mr. BALL - The sidewalk in front of the Texas School Book Depository Building?
Mr. JARMAN - Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL - How long did you stand there?
Mr. JARMAN - Well, until about 12:20, between 12:20 and 12:25

then later, Jarman changes the story:

Representative FORD - You went by the front to the corner of Houston and Elm, and then down Houston towards the loading dock?
Mr. JARMAN - Yes, sir.
Representative FORD - And where did you get on the elevator?
Mr. JARMAN - We walked around to the back entrance and went through this door here, and this elevator here was up on six, I believe. And we walked around the elevator and took the west elevator up.
Representative FORD - How could you tell this elevator was at six?
Mr. JARMAN - Because after we got around to the other side we looked up.
Representative FORD - You could see it was on six?
Mr. JARMAN - Yes.
Representative FORD - This was about what time?
Mr. JARMAN - That was about 12:25 or 12:28.
Representative FORD - You got off the fifth floor?
Mr. JARMAN - Yes, sir.
Representative FORD - As you rode the elevator, you noticed the other one was on the sixth floor?
Mr. JARMAN - Right, sir.


So Jarman has a range from 12:20 to 12:28 but it is NOT likely 12:28 since Bonnie Ray Willams HAS to leave the SN window by about not later than 12:23:30 so  there is enough time for some shooter to walk onto the floor some 180 ft to that window, and place a box on the ledge not later than approx 12:25

It's been demonstrated that there was no gunman firing from that SE corner window....  Several members ( primarily Paul Ernest) have demonstrated that it would have been physically impossible for a gunman to have fired from that cramped cubbyhole.  Jarman said that they arrived on the fifth floor at about 12:28.   So they had to have passed by the 1st floor lunchroom a couple of minutes prior to 12:28 ( 12:26 / 12:27 ) and Lee Oswald saw them as they walked by. 

Believing that a sniper fired from the sixth floor SE corner window after it's been shown to have been impossible is akin to a little kid clinging to a fairy tale as if it is true.

[Alan Ford]

I accept you criticism Alan, but we can all be wrong about details from a fleeting glimpse of an apparently unimportant individual. I suggest the essential features are consistent, male, black and of thin build. How could Rowland have known that Williams lunch remnants would be originally discovered in the SN? The time he claims for the sightings are consistent too, when all evidence in analysed.

I honestly have no dog in this hunt, Mr Crow, and you have done brilliant work in exploring the Williams timing issue and its ramifications. Where we agree is that Mr Rowland's witnessing--------however one reads it--------is a disaster for the official story! 

Male, black and thin are indeed essential features, but age, hair and color of shirt are hardly inessential ones. Is it possible that the highly observant Mr Rowland just got some key details wrong? Yes. But possible doesn't automatically translate into given. I'm just urging caution, that's all.

As you rightly point out, Messrs Piper and West were photographed because of Mr Rowland's description, but Mr Rowland was never shown a photo of Mr Williams. Ok, but why exactly would an ID of Mr Williams as the 'elderly Negro' have been worse for the 'investigators' than an ID of, say, Mr Piper? Both were employees. To have either of them hanging out that window while an armed man is standing over at the south-west window is, to say the least, problematical... But, all things being equal, Mr Williams' being ID'd as the 'elderly Negro' would surely have been the lesser headache, no?

[Colin Crow]

I honestly have no dog in this hunt, Mr Crow, and you have done brilliant work in exploring the Williams timing issue and its ramifications. Where we agree is that Mr Rowland's witnessing--------however one reads it--------is a disaster for the official story! 

Male, black and thin are indeed essential features, but age, hair and color of shirt are hardly inessential ones. Is it possible that the highly observant Mr Rowland just got some key details wrong? Yes. But possible doesn't automatically translate into given. I'm just urging caution, that's all.

As you rightly point out, Messrs Piper and West were photographed because of Mr Rowland's description, but Mr Rowland was never shown a photo of Mr Williams. Ok, but why exactly would an ID of Mr Williams as the 'elderly Negro' have been worse for the 'investigators' than an ID of, say, Mr Piper? Both were employees. To have either of them hanging out that window while an armed man is standing over at the south-west window is, to say the least, problematical... But, all things being equal, Mr Williams' being ID'd as the 'elderly Negro' would surely have been the lesser headache, no?

Here is the way they "solved" the Rowland problem. They asked Shelley to comment and constricted him to the specific description supplied by Rowland.



The clothing description was of no value due to Shelley's memory. Also he had no recollection of either leaving the first floor! The problem with this was that he had no knowledge over the period in question......12.15-12.33pm as he was outside on the steps before the shots and then wandering down to the rail tracks afterwards...... making his statement effectively meaningless. They never showed any photos to Rowland!

To resolve their headache they simply ignored the obvious candidate at that point in time. I believe primarily because of the late exit by Williams from the SN and the implications of an "unfinished" chicken piece.

[Zeon Mason]

It's been demonstrated that there was no gunman firing from that SE corner window....  Several members ( primarily Paul Ernest) have demonstrated that it would have been physically impossible for a gunman to have fired from that cramped cubbyhole.  Jarman said that they arrived on the fifth floor at about 12:28.   So they had to have passed by the 1st floor lunchroom a couple of minutes prior to 12:28 ( 12:26 / 12:27 ) and Lee Oswald saw them as they walked by. 

Believing that a sniper fired from the sixth floor SE corner window after it's been shown to have been impossible is akin to a little kid clinging to a fairy tale as if it is true.

Well i did not say anything about the shooter having actually AIMED his shots, I think it was just possible 1 or 2 shots fired and the rifle "holder" put the rifle out far enough so that Couch, and Euins, and Bob Jackson saw it for a couple seconds.

With you on Paul Ernst especially where the 313 shot trajectory and angle relative to JFKs almost 45 degree turned leftward head after the Z223 shot, lines up a lot better with the South WEST window exactly where Arnold Rowland spotted a man with 30.06 rifle standing about 12:15

[Colin Crow]

To further understand the predicament the WC found themselves in, Rowland testified on March 10, Ball and Belin visited Dallas 10 days later and spent considerable time sorting out the "stories" of Williams, Jarman and Norman prior to their testifying a few days later. Shelley's information about West and Piper was supplied on March 25.

It appears that Ball and Belin did not appreciate the significance of those officers who reported the chicken lunch remnants in the SN prior to the arrival of Fritz (and Day and Studebaker). Many of them claimed "nothing was moved" when clearly it was.

[Walt Cakebread]

Well i did not say anything about the shooter having actually AIMED his shots, I think it was just possible 1 or 2 shots fired and the rifle "holder" put the rifle out far enough so that Couch, and Euins, and Bob Jackson saw it for a couple seconds.

With you on Paul Ernst especially where the 313 shot trajectory and angle relative to JFKs almost 45 degree turned leftward head after the Z223 shot, lines up a lot better with the South WEST window exactly where Arnold Rowland spotted a man with 30.06 rifle standing about 12:15

Zeon, I've said it before and i"ll say it again..... There were NO SHOTS fired from that SE corner window.    In fact I have strong doubt that there was any shot fired from the sixth floor.