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Author Topic: BWF and LMR may not have been the only ones who saw LHO with a bag on 11/22/1963  (Read 97498 times)

Offline Alan Ford

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These are interesting questions you raise, Mr Mason!  Thumb1:

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an  alternative that Owald did not take the curtain rods of his own volition, but was "set up" to take the rods. directly implicates Mrs Paine as an active conspirator.

Its possible of course. She could have called Oswald at the TSBD on Thursday and gave Oswald the idea that Marina wanted to reconcile differences and that Oswald was welcome to some curtain rods in her garage.

Worth reflecting that there would be two parts to this:
----------------getting Mr Oswald to take the curtain rods to work
----------------getting him to do this after an untypical Thursday-night stay in Irving

Regarding the latter, the Oswalds' marital difficulties might indeed have been the leverage needed to get Mr Oswald to break his usual routine.  Thumb1:

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1. Mrs Paine cannot know for certain if Oswald will actually take the curtain rods into the TSBD. For all she knows, he might just leave them in the trunk of BW Fraziers car.

Well, that depends on the purpose he's been given for taking the curtain rods in the first place. He'll be going home to the Beckley apartment after work, so leaving them in Mr Frazier's trunk won't make sense.

Perhaps (to offer just one possible scenario) Ms Paine has asked him-------------as a special favor---------------to pass the curtain rods on to a mutual acquaintance?

Alternatively: 'Why don't you tell your friend Wesley that the reason for your visit is to pick up some curtain rods? I can lend you a pair from the garage. What happens between you and Marina is none of his business.'

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2. There is no certainty that Oswald will  be seen carrying the package. It was just luck that Linnie May Randle was looking out the window at the time Oswald was carrynig his package, otherwise Oswald might have placed it in  BW Fraziers car unsseen. Likewise, he might have been able put the package in the trunk of BW Fraziers car unseen and never took it from the trunk upon arriving at TSBD.

What can be guaranteed at the very least is that Mr Frazier will have seen the long package. Ms Randle---------or anyone else-----------would be a bonus!

What matters is that Mr Oswald be seen with a package by Mr Frazier, and that he deposit the curtain rods somewhere in the Depository where they can be disappeared by a third party by the time the building is being searched by DPD.

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3. Even if Oswald is seen carrying the package into the TSBD, there could be unintended effect if the package IS found early, DOES have Oswalds prints on it, and thus thwarts the set up of Oswald using an MC rifle, presubably brought into the TSBD by conspirator to shoot a few shots at JFK, with a 2nd shooter with a precision rifle if needed to get the kill shot.

Not a problem if there is somebody in the Depository tasked with disappearing the rods (wiping them of prints and then------e.g.-------throwing them down an elevator shaft?) by 12.30 p.m.!

For instance: Mr J Dougherty, who will definitely be on hand to see Mr Oswald arrive at work. He watches to see where Mr Oswald brings the package (domino room? small storage room at front of first floor?). When later asked about this first 11/22 sighting of Mr Oswald, he naturally denies having noticed any package in his hands.

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4. Marina's bad news might upset Oswald so much that he would simply have walked out on Thursday night without taking anything at all, called a cab and left never to ever go back to TSBD at all, so the whole plan of setting Oswald up as a patsy shooter would fall apart completely.

We mustn't assume that Mr Oswald is being set up as a shooter. His unknowing role------------as a known Leftist agitator------------is to 'deliver' the 'rifle' to the building.

So! Let's run with the scenario that Mr Oswald is so upset that he doesn't turn up for work that morning. All is not lost! Plan B kicks into operation. A man named Mr Yates comes forward with a story of having given a lift to a hitchhiker carrying a long package. Where did the hitchhiker ask to be left off? Corner of Elm and Houston.

Mr Oswald goes down in history as the guy who delivered the rifle to the Depository---------------and then quit his job.

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The problem, is, a hypothetical proposition has been submitted that the reason for the request of the document for curtain rods to be tested for prints on March 15th/64 was because the rods WERE found in TSBD, albeit unexpectedly late, and probably accidentally found by someone. For some reason, it was  was too risky to simply destroy the rods, and the conspirators opted that returning the rods to the Paine's garage was the better option?

The hard evidence is that 2 curtain rods were submitted for testing for Mr Oswald's fingerprints three-and-a-half months after the assassination. This after complete and utter silence in the documentary record about any curtain rods still remaining in Ms Paine's garage. Within days of this, a WC on-the-record visit to the Paine home is being planned, in the course of which 2 curtain rods will be 'found' on a shelf in the Paine garage, having supposedly lain there undisturbed since the assassination. And those 2 curtain rods will be given the same numbers as those noted as being marked on the 2 submitted curtain rods by Lieutenant Day 8 days previously: 275, 276.

Obvious conclusions to be drawn from the above:
------------there were originally 4 curtain rods in the Paine garage (Mr M Paine's recollection was correct!)
------------only 2 were still there after the assassination
------------the other 2 (measuring 27.5/27.6 inches----a length uncannily close to Mr Frazier and Ms Randle's estimate for the folded-down bag) turned up many weeks later in the one place that would have warranted their being tested for Mr Oswald's fingerprints: the Depository
------------the entire reason for the bogus 23 March WC session in the Paine home = to make the curtain rods issue safe.

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« Last Edit: April 12, 2019, 06:18:01 AM by Alan Ford »

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Offline Tim Nickerson

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The point of my question is simple, Mr Nickerson: you believe that the 2 curtain rods found in the Paine garage were tested for fingerprinting 8 days before they were found in the Paine garage.



Offline Tim Nickerson

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Well, how about you show us which items from the list you gave us came from Irving and which from the Beckley apartment? Then we can chat!


What difference does it make where they were found? What would be the reason for checking those items for fingerprints? Used soap? Toothpaste? Paper clips? A cardboard box full of thumbtacks?

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Offline Alan Ford

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What difference does it make where they were found? What would be the reason for checking those items for fingerprints? Used soap? Toothpaste? Paper clips? A cardboard box full of thumbtacks?

The reason for checking items will be related to the provenance of those items. Yes?

So-------------from the long list of items you gave us (after having initially told us you didn't care about the fingerprinting issue  :D ) ---------------which of them came from the Paine home and which from Mr Oswald's Beckley apartment? Hm?

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Offline Alan Ford

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 :D

If none of the items you laboriously listed were submitted for fingerprint testing 8 days before they were officially found, then none of them bears comparison with the 2 curtain rods which were submitted for fingerprint testing 8 days before they were officially found. Quite simple, really!

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Offline Tim Nickerson

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The reason for checking items will be related to the provenance of those items. Yes?

So-------------from the long list of items you gave us (after having initially told us you didn't care about the fingerprinting issue  :D ) ---------------which of them came from the Paine home and which from Mr Oswald's Beckley apartment? Hm?

 Thumb1:

Provenance? What are you talking about? How would the items removed from the Paine residence differ in provenance from those removed from Beckley?

Offline Tim Nickerson

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:D

If none of the items you laboriously listed were submitted for fingerprint testing 8 days before they were officially found, then none of them bears comparison with the 2 curtain rods which were submitted for fingerprint testing 8 days before they were officially found. Quite simple, really!

That's what you've been reduced to.  You are in a box. Placed there by yourself.  You cannot give a reasonable explanation for why the items that I listed were checked for fingerprints.  It's basically your own question thrown back in your face. It's unanswerable.

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Offline Alan Ford

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Provenance? What are you talking about? How would the items removed from the Paine residence differ in provenance from those removed from Beckley?

 :D

Provenance of items removed from Paine residence: Paine residence!
Provenance of items removed from Beckley: Beckley!

Now how about you quit parrying and answer the question:
Of the items on the long list you went to the trouble of giving us, which came from Irving and which from Beckley?

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