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Author Topic: BWF and LMR may not have been the only ones who saw LHO with a bag on 11/22/1963  (Read 97376 times)

Offline Alan Ford

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Progress!  And just when intelligent people had cause to doubt it was possible.  So we can discount the claim that Oswald had no long bag in his possession when he entered the TSBD.  Hooray!  Glad you won't be citing that again.  Oswald has a long a bag when he enters the TSBD.  Check.  Now it boils down to the evidence.  On your side you have an estimate of Frazier of the bag's length.  Basically a guess as to the length of an object that he himself notes he barely had cause to notice. 

On the other side, we have such a bag that has Oswald's prints on it.  That bag exists and can be measured.  We don't have to guess or estimate its size.  It is the only such bag matching the general description.  It can't be accounted for in anyway except as Oswald's bag.  No bag matching matching Frazier's estimate was ever found or accounted for in any way.  Oswald denies carrying any long bag along the size estimated by Frazier.  Thus, your hero is lying in your scenario in which Oswald carries the two foot or so long bag.  Why?  It is an important question that sheds considerable light on the contents of a bag.  People lie when it is in their own self-interest and certainly not when it is contrary to their self interest.  But here you would have us believe Oswald lies about carrying a long bag along Frazier's estimate when it would have assisted him considerably if it did not contain any incriminatory evidence.  Why again?  Because the bag he carried contained the rifle!  It doesn't take Sherlock Holmes to reach the obvious conclusion that Frazier honestly, but erroneously estimated the length of the bag.  He got it wrong by a few inches in that scenario and everything else falls into place.  In your wild fantasy alternative scenario, all manner of unresolved and improbable events would have to be reconciled or explained.  Where did the longer bag come from, what happened to the shorter bag, how did Oswald's prints get on the longer bag, why did Oswald lie... none of which any CTer can provide any explanation much less any plausible explanation.

Calm down, Mr Smith. You're letting your emotions get the better of you!  :D

Now! What, in your understanding, is my 'wild fantasy alternative scenario'?

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Offline Bill Chapman

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The "I didn't pay much attention" claim came later. On Friday evening he was adamant. Only later did he become more cautious. Besides, the fact that he didn't pay much attention doesn't automatically mean that he was wrong.
>>> What matters is that he didn't pay much attention, not at what juncture that became known to investigators

>>> You don't seem to understand that agreeing with the WC size would bring all hell down on him.

Even if true, you think this was a consideration on Frazier's mind hours after the murder, when Oswald was still alive in custody and there was no trace of the WC?
>>> I have no idea what any witness had in mind. I can only put myself in any given scene and think about I would do in such a circumstance. Buell said he was threatened physically in that interview. That may have xxxxxx him off enough to reconsider his options.

He saw Oswald put the bag in the cup of his hand and under his shoulder. Do you foolishly think he saw that from behind? Did Frazier have X-ray vision, perhaps?
>>> It seems that Oswald held it in the palm of his hand alright. But Buell agreed with Bug that it could have been held in front.

Stop rambling and just show us all where Randle ever said that the bag " looked long enough to contain a rifle." Go on then, we're waiting!
>>>
First Lennie Mae Randle statement on bag length
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/randle.txt

RANDLE stated that about 7:15 a.m., November 22, 1963, she
looked out of a window of her residence and observed LEE HARVEY OSWALD
walking up her driveway and saw him put a long brown package,
approximately 3 feet by 6 inches, in the back seat area of WESLEY
FRAZIER's 1954 black Chevrolet four door automobile.

(...)

Are you on medication? You are using arguments you don't believe in and you think others do that as well? Really?
>>> 'Using' in what sense

Already destroyed by John Iacoletti
>>>  ::) Great; your fellow gaslighter-in-arms

LOL

PS: Is pointing out that Buell was, arguably, in potentially dire circumstances just considered to be 'rambling' by you?
« Last Edit: March 04, 2019, 10:08:54 PM by Bill Chapman »

Offline Alan Ford

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>>> I have no idea what any witness had in mind. I can only put myself in any given scene and think about I would do in such a circumstance. Buell said he was threatened physically in that interview. That may have xxxxxx him off enough to reconsider his options.


 Thumb1:

(Just so long as one isn't... selective in one's application of this important insight!)

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Offline Bill Chapman

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Thumb1:

(Just so long as one isn't... selective in one's application of this important insight!)

I personally think Buell was honest in what he thinks he saw

Online Martin Weidmann

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The "I didn't pay much attention" claim came later. On Friday evening he was adamant. Only later did he become more cautious. Besides, the fact that he didn't pay much attention doesn't automatically mean that he was wrong.
>>> What matters is that he didn't pay much attention, not at what juncture that became known to investigators

Or he just said that he wasn't paying much attention to give himself some breathing space.

Quote
>>> You don't seem to understand that agreeing with the WC size would bring all hell down on him.

Even if true, you think this was a consideration on Frazier's mind hours after the murder, when Oswald was still alive in custody and there was no trace of the WC?
>>> I have no idea what any witness had in mind. I can only put myself in any given scene and think about I would do in such a circumstance. Buell said he was threatened physically in that interview. That may have xxxxxx him off enough to reconsider his options.

Sure.. reconsider as in using the "I wasn't paying much attention" option

Quote
He saw Oswald put the bag in the cup of his hand and under his shoulder. Do you foolishly think he saw that from behind? Did Frazier have X-ray vision, perhaps?
>>> It seems that Oswald held it in the palm of his hand alright. But Buell agreed with Bug that it could have been held in front.


It seems? What do you mean, "it seems"? Frazier clearly saw the package in the cup of Oswald's hand and under his armpit!

Mr. BALL - When you saw him get out of the car, when you first saw him when he was out of the car before he started to walk, you noticed he had the package under the arm?
Mr. FRAZIER - Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL - One end of it was under the armpit and the other he had to hold it in his right hand. Did the package extend beyond the right hand?
Mr. FRAZIER - No, sir. Like I say if you put it under your armpits and put it down normal to the side.
Mr. BALL - But the right hand on, was it on the end or the side of the package?
Mr. FRAZIER - No; he had it cupped in his hand.
Mr. BALL - Cupped in his hand?
Mr. FRAZIER - Right.

But Buell agreed with Bug that it could have been held in front.

Being the honest man that he is, he just answered Bug's loaded question truthfully. Not seeing the package stick out over Oswald's could indeed mean, in theory at least, that he was holding it in front. However, anybody who ever tried to do it the way Bug suggested will soon find out that it is physically impossible to carry a rifle that way, without the support of the other arm.

Quote
Stop rambling and just show us all where Randle ever said that the bag " looked long enough to contain a rifle." Go on then, we're waiting!
>>>
First Lennie Mae Randle statement on bag length
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/randle.txt

RANDLE stated that about 7:15 a.m., November 22, 1963, she
looked out of a window of her residence and observed LEE HARVEY OSWALD
walking up her driveway and saw him put a long brown package,
approximately 3 feet by 6 inches, in the back seat area of WESLEY
FRAZIER's 1954 black Chevrolet four door automobile.

(...)


That the Bookhout FD 302 report, which Randle never saw or signed. She has contradicted that report in every other official statement she made. And even in that report she did not say that  the bag " looked long enough to contain a rifle.". You are making stuff up again!

Quote
Are you on medication? You are using arguments you don't believe in and you think others do that as well? Really?
>>> 'Using' in what sense


Yep, you must me on meds.

Quote

Already destroyed by John Iacoletti
>>>  ::) Great; your fellow gaslighter-in-arms

LOL

Nah, John is just another person you can not fool with your usual crap

Quote

PS: Is pointing out that Buell was, arguably, in potentially dire circumstances just considered to be 'rambling' by you?

No, but most of your other stuff is.
« Last Edit: March 05, 2019, 01:06:22 AM by Martin Weidmann »

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Online Martin Weidmann

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I personally think Buell was honest in what he thinks he saw

You just don't think he's right and/or telling the truth, right?

After all, he needed to get out of those dire circumstances, right?

Offline John Iacoletti

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Calm down, Mr Smith. You're letting your emotions get the better of you!  :D

Now! What, in your understanding, is my 'wild fantasy alternative scenario'?

Alan, meet Strawman ?Smith?.

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Offline John Iacoletti

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Still waiting for Chapman?s evidence that Randle said the bag ?looked long enough to contain a rifle?.