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Author Topic: Lack Of Damage To CE-399  (Read 67720 times)

Offline Jack Trojan

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Re: Lack Of Damage To CE-399
« Reply #344 on: April 14, 2020, 02:38:28 AM »
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It seems like such a big clumsy plot to be planting evidence like those fragments.

But what if those fragments didn't match the other planted evidence? Those fragments might have been found in the limo but there is no provenance for it or practically any of the evidence in this case. Why did they "clean up" the limo by removing and destroying the windshield with the bullet hole in it? Wouldn't it be insane to tamper with crucial evidence found in the limo? And if they were willing to scrub the limo, then why wouldn't they swap out or manufacture bullet fragments previously shot by the planted rifle? The CIA and FBI weren't amateurs at this stuff.

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Re: Lack Of Damage To CE-399
« Reply #344 on: April 14, 2020, 02:38:28 AM »


Offline Tim Nickerson

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Re: Lack Of Damage To CE-399
« Reply #345 on: April 14, 2020, 03:57:39 AM »
How do you know the fragments now in evidence came from the limo? More "common sense", perhaps?



Mr. EISENBERG - When did you receive that fragment, Mr. Frazier?
Mr. FRAZIER - At 11:50 p.m., November 22, 1963, from Special Agent Orrin Bartlett, our liaison agent with the Secret Service, in the FBI laboratory.
Mr. EISENBERG - And the last bullet fragment you examined, Exhibit 567, when did you receive that?
Mr. FRAZIER - It was received at the same time from Special Agent Bartlett.
Mr. EISENBERG - Did you examine both at that time, Mr. Frazier?
Mr. FRAZIER - Yes, sir; beginning the following morning, November 23.
Mr. EISENBERG - Mr. Chairman, may I have this bullet fragment marked Q-3 admitted as Commission 569?


Offline Gary Craig

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Re: Lack Of Damage To CE-399
« Reply #346 on: April 14, 2020, 07:05:49 AM »

Dr. Robert Shaw, Governor Connally's physician, says that CE 399, the "Magic Bullet",
could not have caused the wounds he saw and treated in Governor Connally.

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Re: Lack Of Damage To CE-399
« Reply #346 on: April 14, 2020, 07:05:49 AM »


Offline Gary Craig

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Re: Lack Of Damage To CE-399
« Reply #347 on: April 14, 2020, 07:40:59 AM »





How could CE567 & CE569 end up mangled and CE399 come out almost pristine?


Online Martin Weidmann

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Re: Lack Of Damage To CE-399
« Reply #348 on: April 14, 2020, 12:46:32 PM »


Mr. EISENBERG - When did you receive that fragment, Mr. Frazier?
Mr. FRAZIER - At 11:50 p.m., November 22, 1963, from Special Agent Orrin Bartlett, our liaison agent with the Secret Service, in the FBI laboratory.
Mr. EISENBERG - And the last bullet fragment you examined, Exhibit 567, when did you receive that?
Mr. FRAZIER - It was received at the same time from Special Agent Bartlett.
Mr. EISENBERG - Did you examine both at that time, Mr. Frazier?
Mr. FRAZIER - Yes, sir; beginning the following morning, November 23.
Mr. EISENBERG - Mr. Chairman, may I have this bullet fragment marked Q-3 admitted as Commission 569?


Nothing new there, that we don't already know. Two men, who had no forensic expertise contaminated one of the most important crime scenes of the century, prior to the arrival of FBI Forensic Specialist Frazier and his team. And for some reason, that's no big deal? Really?

Those same two men then turn over some bullet fragments to the FBI claiming they found them in the limo and we just take their word for it? Really?

And then, six months later those same two men are able to identify those fragments, which were not marked, as those which they allegedly found in the limo, and again, we take them at their word.... Really?

And all this happens in one of the most important criminal investigations of the decade..... Go figure.

If something like this had happened in a trial of an insignificant drugs dealer, the judge would have had the two men arrested because of evidence tampering and would have thrown the case out of court with extreme prejudice......

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Re: Lack Of Damage To CE-399
« Reply #348 on: April 14, 2020, 12:46:32 PM »


Offline John Iacoletti

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Re: Lack Of Damage To CE-399
« Reply #349 on: April 14, 2020, 06:04:40 PM »
Why are you including fragments found in the limo? They never came from CE 399. The fragments deposited in Connally came from CE 399. The total mass of the six fragments deposited in Connally comes no where near to exceeding the mass missing from CE 399.

There’s a lot of assumption in those absolute statements. How do you know Connally’s fragments came from CE 399? How do you know what the starting weight of CE 399 was?

Offline Tim Nickerson

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Re: Lack Of Damage To CE-399
« Reply #350 on: April 14, 2020, 07:51:44 PM »
There’s a lot of assumption in those absolute statements. How do you know Connally’s fragments came from CE 399? How do you know what the starting weight of CE 399 was?

John Tonkovich's claim is that the mass of the fragments purported to have come from CE 399 would end up greater than the mass of one bullet. We know that the fragments deposited in Connally came from CE 399 because that bullet was found on the stretcher that he had been on. Whether you accept that fact or not is separate from the question of "does the mass of those fragments exceed the mass missing from CE 399?"

Robert Frazier weighed three WCC 6.5 mm bullets.

Mr. FRAZIER - We measured several standard bullets, and their weights varied, which is a normal situation, a portion of a grain, or two grains, from 161 grains--that is, they were all in the vicinity of 161 grains. One weighed--- 160.85, 161.5, 161.1 grains.

Lattimer weighed 100 WCC 6.5 mm bullets. The average weight was 160.844 grains, with the lowest being 159.9 grains.

Even if we were to assume that CE 399 weighed 159.9 grains before being fired, the total mass of the fragments deposited in Connally still would not exceed the mass missing from that bullet.

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Re: Lack Of Damage To CE-399
« Reply #350 on: April 14, 2020, 07:51:44 PM »


Online Martin Weidmann

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Re: Lack Of Damage To CE-399
« Reply #351 on: April 14, 2020, 08:04:40 PM »
John Tonkovich's claim is that the mass of the fragments purported to have come from CE 399 would end up greater than the mass of one bullet. We know that the fragments deposited in Connally came from CE 399 because that bullet was found on the stretcher that he had been on. Whether you accept that fact or not is separate from the question of "does the mass of those fragments exceed the mass missing from CE 399?"

Robert Frazier weighed three WCC 6.5 mm bullets.

Mr. FRAZIER - We measured several standard bullets, and their weights varied, which is a normal situation, a portion of a grain, or two grains, from 161 grains--that is, they were all in the vicinity of 161 grains. One weighed--- 160.85, 161.5, 161.1 grains.

Lattimer weighed 100 WCC 6.5 mm bullets. The average weight was 160.844 grains, with the lowest being 159.9 grains.

Even if we were to assume that CE 399 weighed 159.9 grains before being fired, the total mass of the fragments deposited in Connally still would not exceed the mass missing from that bullet.

How can you make such a statement when you don't know what the combined weight is of the fragments that are still in Connally's body?

Aren't you forgetting those fragments recovered from Connally during surgery that Audrey Bell gave to either an FBI agent or a Secret Service agent?