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Author Topic: Could CE-399 have remained inact?  (Read 385 times)

Online Dillon Rankine

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Could CE-399 have remained inact?
« on: August 13, 2018, 12:20:12 AM »
LNers: could CE-399 have remained inact?

The evidence that suggests Connally’s entrance wound caused by a yawing or tumbling missile is the operational record of the Governor’s wounds which recorded that the inshoot in Connally’s back wound which disclose it as being a 3 cm ellipsoid puncture wound. (WCR, pp. 531-2) However, it has been dutifully noted that this more closely describes the extended and debrided wound, and that the original size was 1.5 cm. (4H104) Dr. Michael Baden on behalf of the HSCA Forensic Pathology Panel personally reexamined the wound and concluded it was 2.8 cm. (7 HSCA 240)

Had the bullet which hit JBC struck nose first, it would leave a rounded wound which would measure less than 1 cm in diameter. The mere fact the wound was elliptical and abromally large demonstrates that it likely caused by a tumbling or yawing missile—a phenomanon which occurs after a bullet has previously perforated another object, such as Kennedy’s torso. (DiMaio, 1993, Gunshot Wounds, p. 46) Dr. Lattimer once again provided empirical corroboration using his aforementioned experiment, in which he noted every bullet which struck the JFK target tumbled before striking the JBC target. (Lattimer, 1980, Kennedy and Lincoln, p. 206)

Many critics have raised questions about the feasibility of a Carcano bullet emerging undamaged from an encounter with the radius bone, however there exists the same problem with the rib. Ballistics expert, Larry Strudivan, explained then velocities at which  we can expect bullets to deform,

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“[T]he bullet would begin to deform, if it strikes say, soft tissue … at something in excess of 2,000 feet per second… it strikes bone, which is twice as dense, then it would begin to deform nose on at approximately 1,400 feet per second. If the bullet turns sideways, which is a weaker orientation, it will deform down to around 1,000 feet per second.”
(1 HSCA 369)

According to Sturdivan’s values a bullet traveling sideways and striking bone would deform at or above 1000 ft/sec. Ballistic tests conducted at Edgewood Army Arsenal at the behest of Dr. Alfred Olivier found that the exit velocity of a bullet from JFK’s neck would have been approximately 1798 ft/sec. (5H77-78)

CE-399 not only lacks obvious visual deformity (save being notably ‘squeezed’ when viewed from the base), the surface striations which helps link it to Oswald’s Carcano remained not effaced. (3H430)
   
If the bullet strike side on approximating 1800 ft/sec then by Studdivan’s values would have likely snapped into two pieces, as the centripetal force applied to the nose and tail of the bullet would have caused the centre to break.

Dr. Gregory, JBC’s surgeon, stated that he felt that the fragmented bullet found in the front seat of the limousine, ballistically matched to Oswald’s rifle was a in a condition more consistent with JBC’s injuries than CE-399. (4H122-4)

So I ask the LNers: how do you respond to this information?

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Could CE-399 have remained inact?
« on: August 13, 2018, 12:20:12 AM »


Online John Mytton

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Re: Could CE-399 have remained inact?
« Reply #1 on: August 13, 2018, 01:07:59 AM »
When the bullet struck Kennedy's skull it fragmented and as expected created a lead fragment cloud.



If the bullet that struck Connally was violently broken apart where are all the lead fragments because besides predictable lead flakes where the rear of CE399 struck bone there is nothing more?





JohnM
« Last Edit: August 13, 2018, 01:10:41 AM by John Mytton »

Offline Ross Lidell

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Re: Could CE-399 have remained inact?
« Reply #2 on: August 13, 2018, 01:58:41 AM »
QUOTE: Could CE-399 have remained inact?

Actually: Could CE 399 have remained "intact"?

Answer: It did!!!

Online Dillon Rankine

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Re: Could CE-399 have remained inact?
« Reply #3 on: August 13, 2018, 03:01:16 AM »
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When the bullet struck Kennedy's skull it fragmented and as expected created a lead fragment cloud.



If the bullet that struck Connally was violently broken apart where are all the lead fragments because besides predictable lead flakes where the rear of CE399 struck bone there is nothing more?





JohnM

I would add the skull is much denser and would have (and did) generate much more fragmentation. Indeed, the bullet striking from the side, as a mentioned, would have only halved it, though one would certainly expect some auxiliary fragments (thigh exactly how radiopaque they would be isn’t known). What I am confused about is how CE-399 could have survived when, at least from Studdivan’s estimate, it should have broke apart. I’m not aware of any experiment that corrected these values, but if it exists then my conclusions will obviously be rethought. 

Online John Mytton

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Re: Could CE-399 have remained inact?
« Reply #4 on: August 13, 2018, 04:23:20 AM »
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I would add the skull is much denser and would have (and did) generate much more fragmentation. Indeed, the bullet striking from the side, as a mentioned, would have only halved it, though one would certainly expect some auxiliary fragments (thigh exactly how radiopaque they would be isn’t known). What I am confused about is how CE-399 could have survived when, at least from Studdivan’s estimate, it should have broke apart. I’m not aware of any experiment that corrected these values, but if it exists then my conclusions will obviously be rethought. 

Quote
I would add the skull is much denser and would have (and did) generate much more fragmentation.

Exactly and Connally's wounds show no fragmentation, a bullet breaking in half would have left a shower of lead, but we see none.

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(thigh(though?) exactly how radiopaque they would be isn’t known)

Isn't lead the very definition of what's radiopaque?

Quote
What I am confused about is how CE-399 could have survived when, at least from Studdivan’s estimate, it should have broke apart.

Again it's only an estimate because there are so many factors which are simply undefinable like bullet speed, specific muscle density, bullet angle, etc.

Quote
I’m not aware of any experiment that corrected these values, but if it exists then my conclusions will obviously be rethought.

I don't think there is any specific experiment that could successfully recreate the finer details of what is essentially unknown.

JohnM
« Last Edit: August 13, 2018, 04:36:45 AM by John Mytton »

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Re: Could CE-399 have remained inact?
« Reply #4 on: August 13, 2018, 04:23:20 AM »


Online John Iacoletti

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Re: Could CE-399 have remained inact?
« Reply #5 on: August 13, 2018, 08:06:40 PM »
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Had the bullet which hit JBC struck nose first, it would leave a rounded wound which would measure less than 1 cm in diameter. The mere fact the wound was elliptical and abromally large demonstrates that it likely caused by a tumbling or yawing missile

An oblong wound also could be caused by a non-tumbling bullet entering at an angle.

Offline Bill Brown

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Re: Could CE-399 have remained inact?
« Reply #6 on: August 14, 2018, 06:22:48 AM »
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LNers: could CE-399 have remained inact?

The evidence that suggests Connally’s entrance wound caused by a yawing or tumbling missile is the operational record of the Governor’s wounds which recorded that the inshoot in Connally’s back wound which disclose it as being a 3 cm ellipsoid puncture wound. (WCR, pp. 531-2) However, it has been dutifully noted that this more closely describes the extended and debrided wound, and that the original size was 1.5 cm. (4H104) Dr. Michael Baden on behalf of the HSCA Forensic Pathology Panel personally reexamined the wound and concluded it was 2.8 cm. (7 HSCA 240)

Had the bullet which hit JBC struck nose first, it would leave a rounded wound which would measure less than 1 cm in diameter. The mere fact the wound was elliptical and abromally large demonstrates that it likely caused by a tumbling or yawing missile—a phenomanon which occurs after a bullet has previously perforated another object, such as Kennedy’s torso. (DiMaio, 1993, Gunshot Wounds, p. 46) Dr. Lattimer once again provided empirical corroboration using his aforementioned experiment, in which he noted every bullet which struck the JFK target tumbled before striking the JBC target. (Lattimer, 1980, Kennedy and Lincoln, p. 206)

Many critics have raised questions about the feasibility of a Carcano bullet emerging undamaged from an encounter with the radius bone, however there exists the same problem with the rib. Ballistics expert, Larry Strudivan, explained then velocities at which  we can expect bullets to deform,
(1 HSCA 369)

According to Sturdivan’s values a bullet traveling sideways and striking bone would deform at or above 1000 ft/sec. Ballistic tests conducted at Edgewood Army Arsenal at the behest of Dr. Alfred Olivier found that the exit velocity of a bullet from JFK’s neck would have been approximately 1798 ft/sec. (5H77-78)

CE-399 not only lacks obvious visual deformity (save being notably ‘squeezed’ when viewed from the base), the surface striations which helps link it to Oswald’s Carcano remained not effaced. (3H430)
   
If the bullet strike side on approximating 1800 ft/sec then by Studdivan’s values would have likely snapped into two pieces, as the centripetal force applied to the nose and tail of the bullet would have caused the centre to break.

Dr. Gregory, JBC’s surgeon, stated that he felt that the fragmented bullet found in the front seat of the limousine, ballistically matched to Oswald’s rifle was a in a condition more consistent with JBC’s injuries than CE-399. (4H122-4)

So I ask the LNers: how do you respond to this information?

Dillon, the million dollar question is at what speed was the bullet traveling when it finally made contact with Connally's rib.

Just because the bullet was traveling at approximately 1,800 feet per second when it struck Connally in the back does not mean it was traveling at a speed of over 1,000 feet per second when it struck Connally's rib, i.e. bullet slowed after striking the back to a speed of less than 1,000 feet per second before striking the rib.  That speed, less than 1,000 feet per second, would most likely not be a high enough velocity for the bullet to be damaged considerably when first making contact with bone (Connally's rib).

Online Dillon Rankine

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Re: Could CE-399 have remained inact?
« Reply #7 on: August 14, 2018, 06:30:04 AM »
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Dillon, the million dollar question is at what speed was the bullet traveling when it finally made contact with Connally's rib.

Just because the bullet was traveling at approximately 1,800 feet per second when it struck Connally in the back does not mean it was traveling at a speed of over 1,000 feet per second when it struck Connally's rib, i.e. bullet slowed after striking the back to a speed of less than 1,000 feet per second before striking the rib.  That speed, less than 1,000 feet per second, would most likely not be a high enough velocity for the bullet to be damaged considerably when first making contact with bone (Connally's rib).

Is muzzle velocity is 2165 ft/sec (approx.) meaning travelling the distance to JFK’s back and piercing his torso chopped off less than 400 ft/sec and you propose that between entering the back and hitting the rub it somehow lost at least 800 ft/sec. Umm… no. Just no.  :D

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Re: Could CE-399 have remained inact?
« Reply #7 on: August 14, 2018, 06:30:04 AM »


Offline Bill Brown

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Re: Could CE-399 have remained inact?
« Reply #8 on: August 14, 2018, 07:00:46 AM »
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Is muzzle velocity is 2165 ft/sec (approx.) meaning travelling the distance to JFK’s back and piercing his torso chopped off less than 400 ft/sec and you propose that between entering the back and hitting the rub it somehow lost at least 800 ft/sec. Umm… no. Just no.  :D


Quote
no. Just no.

I'm going to need a little bit more than this before I abandon what I proposed as a possibility.

A bullet in mid-tumble could slow at a more elevated rate (because it is tumbling, of course) than the bullet would slow (not tumbling at all) when it struck the President in the back.

You're in error to compare the two scenarios as you did above.  Apples and oranges.
« Last Edit: August 14, 2018, 07:05:27 AM by Bill Brown »

Online Dillon Rankine

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Re: Could CE-399 have remained inact?
« Reply #9 on: August 14, 2018, 09:11:52 PM »
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I'm going to need a little bit more than this before I abandon what I proposed as a possibility.

A bullet in mid-tumble could slow at a more elevated rate (because it is tumbling, of course) than the bullet would slow (not tumbling at all) when it struck the President in the back.

You're in error to compare the two scenarios as you did above.  Apples and oranges.

Air and and a man’s torso slowed the bullet by less than 400 ft/sec. The distance between the inshoot in JBC’s back and the point of injury to his rib was about 14 cm (which Sturdivan once said would only take 100 ft/sec off the velocity, a figure he later disregarded as a “rough estimate” despite swearing on it). In order to accept your view, you have to believe the bullet lost lost about 60 ft/sec of velocity every 1 cm. While I don’t doubt that yawing could increase velocity loss, it completely absurd to hold this view. The round might not even have had which velocity to damage the wrist or enter the thigh afterwards, given both the rib the wrist would drastically reduce the velocity of your bullet now travelling less than 1000 ft/sec before hitting the rib.

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Re: Could CE-399 have remained inact?
« Reply #9 on: August 14, 2018, 09:11:52 PM »