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Author Topic: 1+1+1=6  (Read 3149 times)

Offline Bill Brown

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Re: 1+1+1=6
« Reply #60 on: June 13, 2018, 11:36:42 PM »
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Aah, what's this?

Mr. KELLERMAN. But after the flurry of shots, I recall her saying, "What are they doing to you?" Now again, of course, my comparison of the voice of her speech--certainly, I have heard it many times, and in the car there was conversation she was carrying on through shock, I am sure.

Are you being dishonest again?

The portion of Kellerman's testimony which was relevant to Walt Cakebread's post (the post which started this whole thing) has Kellerman saying "flurry of shells".

Later in his testimony, when referring to something he heard Jackie say just after the shooting, Kellerman does say "flurry of shots".

In a conversation I had with Bob Harris years ago, he and I were discussing Kellerman's testimony and his reference to a "flurry of shells".

Earlier in this thread when I claimed that Kellerman did not say a flurry of shots, I was going by memory, knowing that he said "a flurry of shells".  Obviously I should have read Kellerman's entire testimony before claiming that he never used the phrase "a flurry of shots".

While I believe that the relevant portion of his testimony which applied to Cakebread's post (which I was replying to) has him saying "a flurry of shells", Kellerman does later say "a flurry of shots" and therefore, I was incorrect in claiming that Kellerman never said "flurry of shots".

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Re: 1+1+1=6
« Reply #60 on: June 13, 2018, 11:36:42 PM »


Offline John Mytton

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Re: 1+1+1=6
« Reply #61 on: June 13, 2018, 11:53:28 PM »


Kellerman's SS report a week later.
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One shot.

We were still traveling at the normal rate of speed of from 12 to 15 miles per hour when I heard a noise, similar to a firecracker, exploding in the area to the rear of the car, about 12:30 p.m.

And two more.

Immediately I heard what I firmly believe was the President's voice, "My God, I'm hit!" I turned around to find out what happened when two additional shots rang out, and the President slumped into Mrs. Kennedy's lap and Governor Connally fell_to Mrs. Connally's lap. I heard Mrs. Kennedy shout, "What are they doing to you?"

Equals three!



JohnM

Online Allan Fritzke

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Re: 1+1+1=6
« Reply #62 on: June 14, 2018, 12:01:19 AM »
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For a SS man, Kellerman is a shockingly poor witness.

A close reading of his testimony indicates that he thinks Kennedy is hit by the first 'firecracker' sounding shot and that the 'flurry' of shots came 'instantaneously' afterwards.

Yet somehow after the first shot Kellerman has time to turn and see JFK is hit, get on the radio to tell Lawson 'we are hit, get to a hospital', before the flurry of shots that supposedly came 'instantaneously' after the firecracker sound.

Makes no sense.

IMO, Kellerman only got on the radio after the fatal headshot, not before.

In any event, we can be sure that the elapsed time between JFK being wounded and his head being blown off is not 'instantaneous'.

Additionally, Kellerman seemingly assumes that the '4 wounds' to JFK couldn't have been caused by two bullets (each causing an entry and exit wound) and that Connally's '3 wounds' couldn't have been the result of one bullet.

Kellerman should know better.

When Kellerman is pressed to describe the 'flurry' of shots, it turns out he is actually describing a 'double bang' or the sound of something breaking the sound barrier.

Having said all that, the bottom line is Kellerman still won't commit to hearing more than 3 shots.

So the question remains, if there were 6 shots fired, why did most people only hear three ?

So far the answer seems to be one conspirator firing unmuted diversionary shots while the real snipers were firing away using rifles with silencers.

Remember also that the lead car "waits" in the "tunnel" for the whole event to unfold - a nice safe distance by the looks of it.    They waited there and allowed the JFK limo to pass them on the way to the hospital according to what you see in the late stages of the Zapruder film.   I don't see much point in believing anything Kellerman said - especially when he is ducked in the front seat and the driver has his head placed close to the windshield to avoid the glass spray from the bullets coming from the front at a 1/2 second interval.  Glass spray certainly will show up in the sunlight which is exactly what it did and what you would expect!

There are also 2 other interesting events to look at.   You see the righthandside (RHS) Secret Service (SS) man (passenger side) in the follow up car on the running boards duck in another footage.   No one else does - so he saw something unusual andmay have had the line of sight of the gunfire coming towards him is my take!   Again adds up to the guy rolling in the grass and sitting there, winded after the event!

You also note the person with the "black afro" freeze in her tracks at Z322 and go the other way away from the scene.   This can be verified with the other vantage point footage.    She saw something going down as well.  Who is she?  That is half a second after Z313!  Zapruder's camera shakes and blurs coincidentally with Z330 "light event" and the absence of Kellerman upright in the seat during those frames.   Zapruder saw its unforgettable damage and heard the unmistakable shot ring out!  The blur and change in the President from before and after these few frames cannot go unnoticed.    Jacqueline reacts thereafter as well and decides to flee the scene thinking she maybe next! 

Its pretty simple if you don't believe a number of concocted and fabricated stories to cover up the whole scene.  However, it was required that our Carcano bolt action sniper rifle held by none other than the quickly deceased LHO wears it.  Failure to buy his "neck shot" and head shot means there is a large number of people involved and not just a lone gunman.   There is a reason information is withheld for 50 years - otherwise why not let the truth reveal itself to the people immediately.   Always told it is a matter of national security.  You bet it is if it would be found to be an inside job.  Can you trust the organizations that don't report to congress and are not held accountable to the people?   Your best shots that don't miss come from very close, point blank and directly in line if the target is moving!

Reminds me of modern day shooter Paddock in Las Vegas.  He supposedly committed suicide, they had his body cremated already and there is no autopsy report yet.   That is in public interest?     Why not have a normal investigation and not quickly cover things up if what they tell you is the truth?  Who benefits from these delays?    That smells of rotten fish too!  Just my opinion!

Online Walt Cakebread

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Re: 1+1+1=6
« Reply #63 on: June 14, 2018, 12:05:41 AM »
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Uhhhhh...had some trigger work done?

A gunsmith could work over the trigger for days....but no amount of "trigger work " could make the cranky old bolt action capable of firing like an automatic....

Online Steve Howsley

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Re: 1+1+1=6
« Reply #64 on: June 14, 2018, 12:10:03 AM »
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Remember also that the lead car "waits" in the "tunnel" for the whole event to unfold - a nice safe distance by the looks of it.    They waited there and allowed the JFK limo to pass them on the way to the hospital according to what you see in the late stages of the Zapruder film.   I don't see much point in believing anything Kellerman said - especially when he is ducked in the front seat and the driver has his head placed close to the windshield to avoid the glass spray from the bullets coming from the front at a 1/2 second interval.  Glass spray certainly will show up in the sunlight which is exactly what it did and what you would expect!

There are also 2 other interesting events to look at.   You see the righthandside (RHS) Secret Service (SS) man (passenger side) in the follow up car on the running boards duck in another footage.   No one else does - so he saw something unusual andmay have had the line of sight of the gunfire coming towards him is my take!   Again adds up to the guy rolling in the grass and sitting there, winded after the event!

You also note the person with the "black afro" freeze in her tracks at Z322 and go the other way away from the scene.   This can be verified with the other vantage point footage.    She saw something going down as well.  Who is she?  That is half a second after Z313!  Zapruder's camera shakes and blurs coincidentally with Z330 "light event" and the absence of Kellerman upright in the seat during those frames.   Zapruder saw its unforgettable damage and heard the unmistakable shot ring out!  The blur and change in the President from before and after these few frames cannot go unnoticed.    Jacqueline reacts thereafter as well and decides to flee the scene thinking she maybe next! 

Its pretty simple if you don't believe a number of concocted and fabricated stories to cover up the whole scene.  However, it was required that our Carcano bolt action sniper rifle held by none other than the quickly deceased LHO wears it.  Failure to buy his "neck shot" and head shot means there is a large number of people involved and not just a lone gunman.   There is a reason information is withheld for 50 years - otherwise why not let the truth reveal itself to the people immediately.   Always told it is a matter of national security.  You bet it is if it would be found to be an inside job.  Can you trust the organizations that don't report to congress and are not held accountable to the people?   Your best shots that don't miss come from very close, point blank and directly in line if the target is moving!

Reminds me of modern day shooter Paddock in Las Vegas.  He supposedly committed suicide, they had his body cremated already and there is no autopsy report yet.   That is in public interest?     Why not have a normal investigation and not quickly cover things up if what they tell you is the truth?  Who benefits from these delays?    That smells of rotten fish too!  Just my opinion!

You have a cast of many involved in your conspiracy. To paraphrase Bugliosi:

It's easy for three people to keep a secret ... so long as two of them are dead.


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Re: 1+1+1=6
« Reply #64 on: June 14, 2018, 12:10:03 AM »


Offline Zeon Mason

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Re: 1+1+1=6
« Reply #65 on: June 14, 2018, 12:30:45 AM »
Kellermans use of word "shots: vs "shells" is relative  to the issue of what sounds Kellerman heard.

If Kellerman is saying he heard only 3 "shots fired" then the "flurry" must apply to "shells" which could be either bullets or fragments of bullets, or some combination of both, that Kellerman heard or saw the effects of, which hit some parts of the interor of the limo, ie, the inner windsheild, the windsheild  frame, and possibly some part of the dashboard.

My question still remains if ALL the fragments are from just one rifle and I am skeptical, because the SE tragectory for the head shot does not appear to me to be possible according to the HSCA diagram of upper right rear entrance and lateral right side of skull exit points. This line is only possible if the skull is NOT rotated leftward as much as it is apparent in the Nix Film and the Muchmore photo. *


I don't understand the "nose" fragment" being so mangled having only hit such a small  spherical area of brittle human bone plus a cushion of hair. I would have expected the ball nose to generally penetrate and remain only somewhat deformed. I welcome some more experiments to test this MC type 6.5 FMJ ball nose bullet fired at a tangent to a human round skull to see what the effects are and if they are anywhere close to being mangled as much as the  "nose"  CE 567 fragment:



The "inside the Target Car" experiment, imo, did NOT quite get JFKs head rotated as leftward as it appears in Nix flim and Muchmore film, and i would welcome another experiment with the head rotated  more leftward, and also I would like to see some shots using the SW 6th story TSBS window  trajectory. They should include this time a replica Hargis dummy on a motorcyle beside the car to see what the  splatter force is from both SE and SW trajectory.

* also, the HSCA diagram for head shot entry/exit does not match with the radial fragmentation lines in the JFK lateral X ray, and there is no diagram to explain how if the fragmentatiion lines converging to the V notch in the autopsy photo were caused by a fragment, and if such fragment the cause, how that fragment did not strike the back seat of Greer.
« Last Edit: June 14, 2018, 12:39:57 AM by Zeon Mason »

Online Allan Fritzke

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Re: 1+1+1=6
« Reply #66 on: June 14, 2018, 01:44:14 AM »
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You have a cast of many involved in your conspiracy. To paraphrase Bugliosi:

It's easy for three people to keep a secret ... so long as two of them are dead.

Fair point taken!  I have always looked at the objective evidence (films) rather than testimonial and tried to make the stories match each other.  When testimonies don't match what you see, then I question it.    From my take on the WC, there were times when people said things that didn't match the record as if edited for a reason, not to gather evidence but gather a conclusion!

Online Walt Cakebread

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Re: 1+1+1=6
« Reply #67 on: June 14, 2018, 02:22:03 PM »
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Remember also that the lead car "waits" in the "tunnel" for the whole event to unfold - a nice safe distance by the looks of it.    They waited there and allowed the JFK limo to pass them on the way to the hospital according to what you see in the late stages of the Zapruder film.   I don't see much point in believing anything Kellerman said - especially when he is ducked in the front seat and the driver has his head placed close to the windshield to avoid the glass spray from the bullets coming from the front at a 1/2 second interval.  Glass spray certainly will show up in the sunlight which is exactly what it did and what you would expect!

There are also 2 other interesting events to look at.   You see the righthandside (RHS) Secret Service (SS) man (passenger side) in the follow up car on the running boards duck in another footage.   No one else does - so he saw something unusual andmay have had the line of sight of the gunfire coming towards him is my take!   Again adds up to the guy rolling in the grass and sitting there, winded after the event!

You also note the person with the "black afro" freeze in her tracks at Z322 and go the other way away from the scene.   This can be verified with the other vantage point footage.    She saw something going down as well.  Who is she?  That is half a second after Z313!  Zapruder's camera shakes and blurs coincidentally with Z330 "light event" and the absence of Kellerman upright in the seat during those frames.   Zapruder saw its unforgettable damage and heard the unmistakable shot ring out!  The blur and change in the President from before and after these few frames cannot go unnoticed.    Jacqueline reacts thereafter as well and decides to flee the scene thinking she maybe next! 

Its pretty simple if you don't believe a number of concocted and fabricated stories to cover up the whole scene.  However, it was required that our Carcano bolt action sniper rifle held by none other than the quickly deceased LHO wears it.  Failure to buy his "neck shot" and head shot means there is a large number of people involved and not just a lone gunman.   There is a reason information is withheld for 50 years - otherwise why not let the truth reveal itself to the people immediately.   Always told it is a matter of national security.  You bet it is if it would be found to be an inside job.  Can you trust the organizations that don't report to congress and are not held accountable to the people?   Your best shots that don't miss come from very close, point blank and directly in line if the target is moving!

Reminds me of modern day shooter Paddock in Las Vegas.  He supposedly committed suicide, they had his body cremated already and there is no autopsy report yet.   That is in public interest?     Why not have a normal investigation and not quickly cover things up if what they tell you is the truth?  Who benefits from these delays?    That smells of rotten fish too!  Just my opinion!

There is a reason information is withheld for 50 years - otherwise why not let the truth reveal itself to the people immediately.   Always told it is a matter of national security.  You bet it is if it would be found to be an inside job.

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Re: 1+1+1=6
« Reply #67 on: June 14, 2018, 02:22:03 PM »


Offline Steve Logan

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Re: 1+1+1=6
« Reply #68 on: June 14, 2018, 05:18:03 PM »
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Remember also that the lead car "waits" in the "tunnel" for the whole event to unfold - a nice safe distance by the looks of it.    They waited there and allowed the JFK limo to pass them on the way to the hospital according to what you see in the late stages of the Zapruder film.   I don't see much point in believing anything Kellerman said - especially when he is ducked in the front seat and the driver has his head placed close to the windshield to avoid the glass spray from the bullets coming from the front at a 1/2 second interval.  Glass spray certainly will show up in the sunlight which is exactly what it did and what you would expect!

There are also 2 other interesting events to look at.   You see the righthandside (RHS) Secret Service (SS) man (passenger side) in the follow up car on the running boards duck in another footage.   No one else does - so he saw something unusual andmay have had the line of sight of the gunfire coming towards him is my take!   Again adds up to the guy rolling in the grass and sitting there, winded after the event!

You also note the person with the "black afro" freeze in her tracks at Z322 and go the other way away from the scene.   This can be verified with the other vantage point footage.    She saw something going down as well.  Who is she?  That is half a second after Z313!  Zapruder's camera shakes and blurs coincidentally with Z330 "light event" and the absence of Kellerman upright in the seat during those frames.   Zapruder saw its unforgettable damage and heard the unmistakable shot ring out!  The blur and change in the President from before and after these few frames cannot go unnoticed.    Jacqueline reacts thereafter as well and decides to flee the scene thinking she maybe next! 

Its pretty simple if you don't believe a number of concocted and fabricated stories to cover up the whole scene.  However, it was required that our Carcano bolt action sniper rifle held by none other than the quickly deceased LHO wears it.  Failure to buy his "neck shot" and head shot means there is a large number of people involved and not just a lone gunman.   There is a reason information is withheld for 50 years - otherwise why not let the truth reveal itself to the people immediately.   Always told it is a matter of national security.  You bet it is if it would be found to be an inside job.  Can you trust the organizations that don't report to congress and are not held accountable to the people?   Your best shots that don't miss come from very close, point blank and directly in line if the target is moving!

Reminds me of modern day shooter Paddock in Las Vegas.  He supposedly committed suicide, they had his body cremated already and there is no autopsy report yet.   That is in public interest?     Why not have a normal investigation and not quickly cover things up if what they tell you is the truth?  Who benefits from these delays?    That smells of rotten fish too!  Just my opinion!

Wow, multiple paragraphs of bovine excrement.

Offline Matt Grantham

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Re: 1+1+1=6
« Reply #69 on: June 14, 2018, 05:31:06 PM »
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Wow, multiple paragraphs of bovine excrement.

 Perhaps you are competing with Howard Gee on the meaningless taunts category Since John I's seeming disappearance you are now the clear leader Congratulations

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Re: 1+1+1=6
« Reply #69 on: June 14, 2018, 05:31:06 PM »