5.6 seconds or 4.9 seconds (between magic bullet and head shot)?

[Jack Nessan]

Virginia Baker (née Rackley) thought a bullet might have struck the pavement behind the limousine by the "first sign" and in the middle of the lane nearest the infield. It's unclear what sign she meant with reference to the pavement strike she thought she saw; I would go with the Thornton Fwy sign. I think she was referring to the Stemmon Sign in reference to the location of teenage boys who might have thrown out a firecracker (some goof-ball thing they do for fun in Texas to see guns drawn).

The only way I can see her testimony working is if the bullet actually hit the pavement behind the "Queen Mary". The gap between the "Queen Mary" and the LBJ convertible is pretty wide (relative to Baker) for some time. The gap allows her to see the lane near the infield.

Baker: "It looked just like you could see the sparks from it"

Doubtful a copper jacketed lead bullet can even cause a spark hitting the asphalt.

What kids are even in the area to throw a firecracker. Let alone throw it from he first choice, the underpass, which is at least 75 yards away.

The eyewitnesses state where the car was located when the first shot occurred and that JFK reacted to it. There is no mystery to it.

[Thomas Graves]

Baker: "It looked just like you could see the sparks from it"

Doubtful a copper jacketed lead bullet can even cause a spark hitting the asphalt.

What kids are even in the area to throw a firecracker. Let alone throw it from he first choice, the underpass, which is at least 75 yards away.

The eyewitnesses state where the car was located when the first shot occurred and that JFK reacted to it. There is no mystery to it.

Jack,

Good post.

Have you watched the "The Shot That Missed" segment of PBS NOVA's Cold Case: JFK?

The volcanic-like plume or ejection of pulverized asphalt from a 30° bullet strike on Elm Street was probably what Virgie Baker saw, and not knowing what had happened but assuming that it was a firecracker, how else was she to describe it?

In reality she couldn't have seen a firecracker explode near the limo, because she said she saw "sparks", and sparks are quite different from a small-but-bright explosion, and almost perfectly describe what she did see happen in the bright sunlight several yards down the street.

She might even have seen fragments of the pulverized bullet glistening briefly in the sunlight.

--  MWT 

[Thomas Graves]

Not a valid vimeo URL
Can't understand how Virgie Baker could see to the lane beside the infield while looking between the limousine and "Queen Mary". Using a map, I estimate the two cars are too close together for Baker to see between them Z125-onward.



Baker marked her position "1" and where the "bullet" struck "2". She could only see such a strike if both the Presidential limousine and "Queen Mary" were ahead of her line-of-sight. And maybe that's what she meant by "behind" the limousine, that she saw behind both cars.

Jerry,

Is the aerial photo you posted from the Warren Commission Report, or from somone's book?

If the former, does it have a CE number or somesuch thing?

--  MWT 

[Jerry Organ]

John,

Please tell us again how far down Elm Street you believe the limo was when Oswald fired his first of three shots.

Do you believe the "sparks" that were noticed by Virgie Baker were caused by a firecracker, or maybe by a second shooter?

Individual shooters make unique sparks?

Do you think it implausible that Oswald took a "potshot" through the foliage of a Southern Oak tree?

--  MWT 

PS  Regarding the bullet that exited (or entered?) JFK's throat, how much time do you think had elapsed between the firing of that shot and the capturing of JFK's agony in Altgens-6?

If there's a point to this riddle, please make it.

Enough time for Secret Service agent George Hickey to stand up and turn towards the TSBD?

"After a very short distance [after coming out of the Elm Street turn?] I heard a loud report which sounded like a firecracker. It appeared to come from the right and rear and seemed to me to be at ground level. I stood up and looked to my right and rear in an attempt to identify it. Nothing caught my attention except people shouting and cheering." (11/30/63)

Fwiw, I rather doubt that Hinkey was reacting to the "throat shot" that was captured by Altgens.

I think Hickey reacted to hearing the first shot, the shot that nicked a tree branch or two, hit the asphalt at a thirty-something degree angle, and was pulverized.

Hickey never stood up, as in standing on his feet. He might have made his torso more vertical, as he's leaning to his left early on in the Zapruder film. Personally I don't Hickey turned his head rearward as immediately as he seems to imply, though he may have honestly reconstructed it that way.

Jerry,

Is the aerial photo you posted from the Warren Commission Report, or from somone's book?

If the former, does it have a CE number or somesuch thing?

--  MWT 

The exhibit number and how it got marked is in Mrs. Baker's WC testimony.

[Thomas Graves]

Individual shooters make unique sparks?

Jerry, Jerry, Jerry.

Your question is nonsensical. For example, what does "individual" have to do with it?  Do multiple shooters make "unique sparks"?

LOL

Regardless, to help you get your head around this, you should watch this video, especially the part that starts at 02:16.

Virgie Baker didn't exactly describe what she saw as "sparks," but, in so many words, as something like sparks.

Which is what this would look like to her in the low, late November sunlight from where she was standing, i.e., something kinda like sparks, especially to someone who was probably not expecting to see a high-velocity bullet impact the street.

https://www.pbs.org/video/nova-shot-missed/

--  MWT   

[John Tonkovich]

Jerry, Jerry, Jerry.

Your question is nonsensical. For example, what does "individual" have to do with it?  Do multiple shooters make "unique sparks"?

LOL

Regardless, to help you get your head around this, you should watch this video, especially the part that starts at 02:16.

Virgie Baker didn't exactly describe what she saw as "sparks," but, in so many words, as something like sparks.

Which is what this would look like to her in the low, late November sunlight from where she was standing, i.e., something kinda like sparks, especially to someone who was probably not expecting to see a high-velocity bullet impact the street.

https://www.pbs.org/video/nova-shot-missed/

--  MWT   

Mr. Graves:

The asphalt aspect of that video is informative; however, the tree branch portion shows very little deviation of the bullet from its intended target.

[Jerry Organ]

Jerry, Jerry, Jerry.

Your question is nonsensical. For example, what does "individual" have to do with it?  Do multiple shooters make "unique sparks"?

You asked: "Do you believe the "sparks" that were noticed by Virgie Baker were caused by a firecracker, or maybe by a second shooter?"

So how does seeing sparks (quote-marked if you like) automatically mean "second shooter"?

[Gary Craig]

ASSASSINATION Or PRESIDENT KENNEDY
Officer Buddy Walther_ Deputy Sheriff Dallas County Sheriff's Office

Date Nov 22, 1963

-snip-

"...I immediately went to the triple underpass
on Elm Street in an effort to locate possible marks left by stray bullets.
While I was looking for possible marks, some unknown person stated to
me that something had hit his face while he was parked on Main Street,
the next lane south from Elm, as the traffic had been stopped for the
parade. Upon examining the curb and pavement in this vicinity I found
where a bullet had splattered on the top edge of the curb on Main Street
which would place the direction of firing, high and behind the position
the Presidents car was in when he was shot..."

-snip-

--------------------------------

Before me, the undersigned authority, on this the 22nd day of November A. D.1963
personally appeared -Austin Lawrence Miller W/M 26Addr. 1006 PowZll Circle, Mesquitt

-snip

It had preceeded about halfway from Houston
Street to the underpass when I heard what sounded like a shot a short second two
more sharp reports . A man in the back seat slumped over and a woman in bright col
ored dress (Orange or Yellow) grabbed the man and yelled . One shot apparently hit
the street past the car. I saw something which I thought was smoke or steam
coming from a group of trees north of Elm off the Railroad tracks .

-snip-

--------------------------------

Before me, the undersigned authority. on this the 22 day of November A D.1963
peisonally appeared Royce Glenn  Skelton

-snip-

the motorcade come around the corner and I heard something
which I thought was fireworks . I saw something hit the
pavement at the left rear of the car, then the car got in
the right hand lane and I heard two more shots . I heard a
woman say "Oh no" or something and grab a man inside the
car . I then heard another shot and saw the bullet hit the
pavement . The concrete was knocked to the South away from
the car . It hit the pavement in the left or middle lane.

-snip-