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Author Topic: Bobby Nolan's Bullet  (Read 1582 times)

Offline Matt Grantham

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Re: Bobby Nolan's Bullet
« Reply #20 on: May 16, 2018, 01:53:29 PM »
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What exactly do you mean? Should Bobby Nolan , and others like him, be held accountable for faulty memory of something that they were involved in fifty years ago? Please clarify what you mean.

  My understanding is that law enforcement is tasked with certain protocols in terms of the chain of custody of evidence and the protection evidence. They are accountable to do so

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Re: Bobby Nolan's Bullet
« Reply #20 on: May 16, 2018, 01:53:29 PM »


Offline Matt Grantham

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Re: Bobby Nolan's Bullet
« Reply #21 on: May 16, 2018, 02:01:45 PM »
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How much of that problem is actually due to lost evidence, and how much is just lost memories?

 Maybe this question is supposed to mean that the memories our false and no such document ever existed? Not very well spelled out if that is what you meant IMO. If there wasn't the incredible record of lost evidence and outright deception it might be worth considering a witness It is not a matter of forgetting but rather a delusional memory of something that according to your theory never happened

Offline Tim Nickerson

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Re: Bobby Nolan's Bullet
« Reply #22 on: May 16, 2018, 06:10:03 PM »
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  My understanding is that law enforcement is tasked with certain protocols in terms of the chain of custody of evidence and the protection evidence. They are accountable to do so

Ok, who is to say that the protocols were not followed at the time? Nolan took possession of the fragments and signed a receipt for them as well as initialed the envelope that contained them.. That more than satisfies his link in any chain of custody that might be required. Those four fragments were "Bobby Nolan's Bullet".

Offline Matt Grantham

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Re: Bobby Nolan's Bullet
« Reply #23 on: May 17, 2018, 01:05:17 AM »
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Ok, who is to say that the protocols were not followed at the time? Nolan took possession of the fragments and signed a receipt for them as well as initialed the envelope that contained them.. That more than satisfies his link in any chain of custody that might be required. Those four fragments were "Bobby Nolan's Bullet".

 I am by no means convinced that something sinister took place in regard to these fragments, but there is according to Bell a paper she signed that is seemingly missing Then I made as statement that missing evidence tens to be a bit more suspicious that usual given the fact of the generally tendency for things to go missing in this case It certainly it is not evidence of anything

Online Mitch Todd

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Re: Bobby Nolan's Bullet
« Reply #24 on: May 17, 2018, 03:00:20 AM »
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Maybe this question is supposed to mean that the memories our false and no such document ever existed? Not very well spelled out if that is what you meant IMO. If there wasn't the incredible record of lost evidence and outright deception it might be worth considering a witness It is not a matter of forgetting but rather a delusional memory of something that according to your theory never happened

Go back to what I've said about the envelope. Nolan and Bell both identified their writing on the CE842 envelope. She said that she only handed out bullet fragments once. He said that he was visited by the copper n' lead fairy only once.  Given the envelope, the writing on the envelope and Bell and Nolan's accounts of participating in exactly one exchange, the only conclusion is that Bell filled out CE842 and handed it to Nolan. Their handwriting is what ties them together that day, no matter how they may have remembered it 15-50 years later.

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Re: Bobby Nolan's Bullet
« Reply #24 on: May 17, 2018, 03:00:20 AM »


Online Mitch Todd

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Re: Bobby Nolan's Bullet
« Reply #25 on: May 17, 2018, 03:13:19 AM »
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I am by no means convinced that something sinister took place in regard to these fragments, but there is according to Bell a paper she signed that is seemingly missing Then I made as statement that missing evidence tens to be a bit more suspicious that usual given the fact of the generally tendency for things to go missing in this case It certainly it is not evidence of anything

Consider for a second the purpose of a receipt. It's a slip of paper given to someone as a token in exchange for something else as proof that the transaction took place. In this case, Bell (as agent of Parkland Hospital) gave someone an envelope with fragments. Since Bell gave up the bullet/fragments, she should have been given a receipt in return as a token acknowledging and proving that she handed over the fragments.  It would have been the other party's job to generate a receipt and give it to her. In other words, it doesn't really make sense that she would have written out a receipt in this case.

Offline Matt Grantham

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Re: Bobby Nolan's Bullet
« Reply #26 on: May 17, 2018, 06:39:38 AM »
 Tim correct me if I am wrong but the Dallas County Hospital Memorandum you have p[rovided says bullet fragment

It seems this envelope has now been destroyed?

 Quoting Audrey Bell

“She independently recalled filling out a receipt on 11/22/63 for the fragments on half-page sized paper with red lettering in the letterhead, which was signed for by one of two men in civilian clothes (whom she thought were Federal agents) who accepted the fragments. She said she personally delivered the original of this receipt to Parkland Hospital Administrator, Jack Price. (ARRB staff promised to try to locate this document, and promised that if located, we would mail her a photocopy for verification purposes.)”

 Dr Shires also is quoted that a single bullet or fragment was in the envelope

 The FBI reported that the envelope contained a single fragment

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 I totally agree with Robert Harris. He proved that Exhibit #399 (the infamous magic bullet) CANNOT be the TRUE bullet that stroke Gov. John Connally. It was Connally himself who totally debunked this hypothesis, when he wrote in his book  “In History Shadow” (1994)– black on white – “the most curious discovery of all took place when they rolled me off the stretcher, and onto the examining table. A metal object fell to the floor, with a click no louder than a wedding band. The nurse picked it up and slipped it into her pocket. It was the bullet from my body, the one that passed through my back, chest and wrist and worked itself loose from my thigh.”


 I will say that the stories of those involved are pretty much completely at odds with the story the receipts supposedly tell Initials are kind of borderline in terms of the last word on anything I mist say I am changing my tune on where the preponderance of evidence leads us here

 
« Last Edit: May 17, 2018, 07:03:24 AM by Matt Grantham »

Offline Tim Nickerson

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Re: Bobby Nolan's Bullet
« Reply #27 on: May 19, 2018, 05:59:39 AM »
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Tim correct me if I am wrong but the Dallas County Hospital Memorandum you have p[rovided says bullet fragment

It seems this envelope has now been destroyed?

 Quoting Audrey Bell

“She independently recalled filling out a receipt on 11/22/63 for the fragments on half-page sized paper with red lettering in the letterhead, which was signed for by one of two men in civilian clothes (whom she thought were Federal agents) who accepted the fragments. She said she personally delivered the original of this receipt to Parkland Hospital Administrator, Jack Price. (ARRB staff promised to try to locate this document, and promised that if located, we would mail her a photocopy for verification purposes.)”

 Dr Shires also is quoted that a single bullet or fragment was in the envelope

 The FBI reported that the envelope contained a single fragment

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 I totally agree with Robert Harris. He proved that Exhibit #399 (the infamous magic bullet) CANNOT be the TRUE bullet that stroke Gov. John Connally. It was Connally himself who totally debunked this hypothesis, when he wrote in his book  “In History Shadow” (1994)– black on white – “the most curious discovery of all took place when they rolled me off the stretcher, and onto the examining table. A metal object fell to the floor, with a click no louder than a wedding band. The nurse picked it up and slipped it into her pocket. It was the bullet from my body, the one that passed through my back, chest and wrist and worked itself loose from my thigh.”

 I will say that the stories of those involved are pretty much completely at odds with the story the receipts supposedly tell Initials are kind of borderline in terms of the last word on anything I mist say I am changing my tune on where the preponderance of evidence leads us here

Matt, Why would you assume that the envelope has been destroyed? Did you even bother reading Gary Murr's posts on the ED Forum, like I suggested? Go and read them. Read Chris Scally's post there as well.

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I already noted that Audrey Bell wrote "fragment" on the receipt. Her doing so is likely why J. Doyle Williams used the singular form instead of plural when referring to the fragments. Although, Elizabeth Wright, Director of Nursing Services at Parkland, also used the singular form. However, one thing is common in all of the documentation on this matter; that Bobby Nolan did not receive a bullet. He took possession of fragment(s) from Audrey Bell.

Here is what we have that decimates Bob Harris' nonsense on this subject:

1) J. Doyle Williams' report on Bill Stinson interview:

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2) J. Doyle Williams' report on interview with Audrey Bell:

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3) J. Doyle Williams' report on interview with Bobby Nolan:

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4) J. Doyle Williams' report on interview with Dr Charles Gregory:

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5) From the signed statement of Elizabeth L. Wright, Director of Nursing Services at Parkland:

"I asked him to whom this fragment was given, and he said : "To Officer Knowland (spelling'questionable) of the Dallas City Police Department ."I am not certain, but I think he was referring to Ranger Nolan of the Highway Patrol . I reported this to the security officer, and did not concern myself further until the question was raised : "Was Dr . Shires the final authority?" I called Dr. Duke, the resident who was present when I talked with Dr. Shires. He had heard our conversation, and had assisted Dr. Shires with his part of the surgery. The two of us conferred, and together agreed to release to Mr. Wright the information that, according to Dr. Shires, only one bullet was involved in Governor Connally's injury, and that the fragment of this bullet which was removed by Dr. Gregory from the wrist was in the possession of Ranger Nolan - who Dr. Shires, at the time of our conversation, had described as a city policeman."

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6) 11/22/63 Memorandum to SAC, Dallas from Supervisor Joseph J. Loeffler:




7) The fact that no whole bullet, other than CE 399, has ever surfaced in public.

8.) The fact that not a single known member of Parkland's staff has ever mentioned a bullet being found on or near Connally's stretcher, other than CE399.

9) Joseph Freeman's memo of April 26, 1996.

10) The envelope filled out by Audrey Bell and initialed by Bobby Nolan.



11) The receipt for the transfer from Audrey Bell to Bobby Nolan. Signed by both.



12) The fact that Connally never once publicly stated that he was aware of a bullet falling from his stretcher. He was given the chance to do so during his WC testimony.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you know whether there was any bullet, or bullet fragments, that remained in your body or in your clothing as you were placed on the emergency stretcher at Parkland Hospital?
Governor CONNALLY. No.


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« Last Edit: May 19, 2018, 06:03:07 AM by Tim Nickerson »

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Re: Bobby Nolan's Bullet
« Reply #27 on: May 19, 2018, 05:59:39 AM »


Offline Matt Grantham

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Re: Bobby Nolan's Bullet
« Reply #28 on: May 19, 2018, 03:44:52 PM »
 Maybe if I have time I will look at some more of this, but is the quote attributed  as being in Connally's  book in there or isn't it?

Online Mitch Todd

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Re: Bobby Nolan's Bullet
« Reply #29 on: May 19, 2018, 05:13:28 PM »
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Maybe if I have time I will look at some more of this, but is the quote attributed  as being in Connally's  book in there or isn't it?

This is Connally on his memories of that day:

"It is no longer possible to say with certitude how much of the race to Parkland Memorial Hospital I remember, and how much I have been told by Nellie, or picked up from watching the news films or reading  the official reports" [In History's Shadow, p12]

"Many of my memories are secondhand. I am missing the most historic minutes of my life." [Ibid, p15]

"This is what I missed, what I would put together from the accounts of those who survived that day in Dallas." [Ibid]

It would be worth quote another part of the book as an example:

"The federal agents, who had been assigned to their own car (called the 'Queen Mary') , jumped out and headed for the front entrance even as some in the crowd were still waving to the President"

We all know that didn't happen. As I told Harris a while back in another forum, Connally's "auto"biography recounts a number of other things in his book that he could not have seen.  The question becomes, how can we filter what Connally directly remembers from what he divined from other sources? The comb to do this is simple enough, as it turns out. In the book, the bits that can be corroborated against Connally's earlier testimony and interviews are stated in first-person active: "I saw...", "I heard...", "I felt....", "I thought", "I knew....". The bits that we know that he could not have experienced himself, like the agents abandoning the Queen Mary for the TSBD front door, are stated in third-person. I doubt that it's a perfect test, but it correlates very well, if you look. So, the first thing to do would be to take the quote that Harris dotes on and apply the comb to it:

"The most curious discovery of all took place when they rolled me off the stretcher, and onto the examining table. A metal object fell to the floor, with a click no louder than a wedding band. The nurse picked it up and slipped it into her pocket. It was the bullet from my body, the one that passed through my back, chest and wrist and worked itself loose from my thigh.” [that's on page 18, BTW]

Looks like the it's stated in the third person, does it not?

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Re: Bobby Nolan's Bullet
« Reply #29 on: May 19, 2018, 05:13:28 PM »