Users Currently Browsing This Topic:
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Author Topic: The Limo Bullet Fragments....  (Read 2952 times)

Offline Paul Ernst

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 564
  • Semper peratus semper idem
Re: The Limo Bullet Fragments....
« Reply #30 on: May 16, 2018, 02:28:11 AM »


JFK Assassination Forum

Re: The Limo Bullet Fragments....
« Reply #30 on: May 16, 2018, 02:28:11 AM »


Offline Paul Ernst

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 564
  • Semper peratus semper idem
Re: The Limo Bullet Fragments....
« Reply #31 on: May 16, 2018, 02:33:58 AM »



Offline Joe Elliott

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 243
Re: The Limo Bullet Fragments....
« Reply #32 on: May 19, 2018, 09:45:06 PM »

You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

3 FRAGMENTS UNDER MRS CONNALLYS SEAT!!!????


There must been a FOURTH fragment to have hit curb near Tague. Where is that fragment?


Actually, the smear on the curb was probably not caused by a bullet but by a tire lead weight. It is too unlikely that a bullet would just happen to strike precisely on the corner of the curb. Not off by even a centimeter.

What happened to the fragment that nicked Mr. Tague’s cheek? It flew on and was never found. It would be unlikely to have been found. It was pretty small. Dealey Plaza, while small for a shooting range, is quite big enough to make it difficult to find such a fragment.



You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

Has there been an experiment that shows a MC 6.5 FMJ bullet will fragment into 4 aprox same size fragments after striking only a very small round portion of human skull on a tangent line.


On a living head? No. But ballistic tests do show a WCC/MC bullet will fragment upon strike a skull at near muzzle velocity.

Questions:

Can you find a single ballistic expert who says otherwise?

Have you ever read a book by a ballistic expert?




You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

To explain the radial fragmentation along the right front side as per the JFK lateral X ray, would reguire a fragment to have defleted inward, traverseing the right side of the brain, then exit at where the "V" notch is seen in the JFK autopsy photo.

If that is the case, then that fragment would have been on a tragectory line that should have hit the back side of Greer's seat and thus there should have been a hole in the back of his seat.


This is assuming a bullet that fragments would continue on a straight line. Real ballistic experts, like Larry Sturdivan, say that bullet fragments do not maintain a straight line and this has been demonstrated in photographs of bullet fragment paths through ballistic gel.

Question:

Can you find a single ballistic expert who says that bullet fragments continue through a human body in a straight line?


Until you find a ballistic expert who says this, extrapolating where a bullet or a fragment should end up is a waste of time. [/b]

Offline Joe Elliott

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 243
Re: The Limo Bullet Fragments....
« Reply #33 on: May 19, 2018, 10:45:26 PM »

You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login





The question is, is the plastic skull a good model for a human skull?

I know it was suppose to be. I know the company that made it tried to make a good model. But was it a good model?



No. Ballistic tests show that a WCC/MC bullet would fragment upon hitting bone at near muzzle velocity. The bullet in this test did not fragment. That means there was something wrong with the model that was shot.

I suspect the problem was the plastic shell, modeling the skull was not dense enough. Bone is about twice as dense as water. This is what causes the WCC/MC bullet to fragment. Not the strength of the material, but the density.

If the model skull was only as dense as water, which is probably correct, the bullet would not fragment and it would continue through the head in a straight line and strike the seat in front down low, not the windshield or the windshield frame.

I believe a proper model would have fragmented the bullet, causing the bullet to fragment, which causes the fragments to follow curved paths. If the fragments happened to curve upward, they may have struck the windshield, or maybe the windshield frame or maybe even clear the windshield.

The model they chose replicated some aspects of the z312 head shot. The “skull” was hard and stiff enough to ‘explode’, causing the explosive wounds that are so similar to what we see in the Zapruder film. But not the detail of it’s effect on the bullet or the effect on the path of the bullet a proper model would have had.

Offline Paul Ernst

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 564
  • Semper peratus semper idem
Re: The Limo Bullet Fragments....
« Reply #34 on: May 19, 2018, 11:31:16 PM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

The question is, is the plastic skull a good model for a human skull?

I know it was suppose to be. I know the company that made it tried to make a good model. But was it a good model?



No. Ballistic tests show that a WCC/MC bullet would fragment upon hitting bone at near muzzle velocity. The bullet in this test did not fragment. That means there was something wrong with the model that was shot.

I suspect the problem was the plastic shell, modeling the skull was not dense enough. Bone is about twice as dense as water. This is what causes the WCC/MC bullet to fragment. Not the strength of the material, but the density.

If the model skull was only as dense as water, which is probably correct, the bullet would not fragment and it would continue through the head in a straight line and strike the seat in front down low, not the windshield or the windshield frame.

I believe a proper model would have fragmented the bullet, causing the bullet to fragment, which causes the fragments to follow curved paths. If the fragments happened to curve upward, they may have struck the windshield, or maybe the windshield frame or maybe even clear the windshield.

The model they chose replicated some aspects of the z312 head shot. The “skull” was hard and stiff enough to ‘explode’, causing the explosive wounds that are so similar to what we see in the Zapruder film. But not the detail of it’s effect on the bullet or the effect on the path of the bullet a proper model would have had.

And they failed again to do a good reenactment.
And the sell it otherwise to the public.

Elvis has left the building again!


 ;D


JFK Assassination Forum

Re: The Limo Bullet Fragments....
« Reply #34 on: May 19, 2018, 11:31:16 PM »


Offline Paul Ernst

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 564
  • Semper peratus semper idem
Re: The Limo Bullet Fragments....
« Reply #35 on: May 19, 2018, 11:33:19 PM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Actually, the smear on the curb was probably not caused by a bullet but by a tire lead weight. It is too unlikely that a bullet would just happen to strike precisely on the corner of the curb. Not off by even a centimeter.

What happened to the fragment that nicked Mr. Tague’s cheek? It flew on and was never found. It would be unlikely to have been found. It was pretty small. Dealey Plaza, while small for a shooting range, is quite big enough to make it difficult to find such a fragment.



On a living head? No. But ballistic tests do show a WCC/MC bullet will fragment upon strike a skull at near muzzle velocity.

Questions:

Can you find a single ballistic expert who says otherwise?

Have you ever read a book by a ballistic expert?




This is assuming a bullet that fragments would continue on a straight line. Real ballistic experts, like Larry Sturdivan, say that bullet fragments do not maintain a straight line and this has been demonstrated in photographs of bullet fragment paths through ballistic gel.

Question:

Can you find a single ballistic expert who says that bullet fragments continue through a human body in a straight line?


Until you find a ballistic expert who says this, extrapolating where a bullet or a fragment should end up is a waste of time. [/b]

Actually, the smear on the curb was probably not caused by a bullet but by a tire lead weight. It is too unlikely that a bullet would just happen to strike precisely on the corner of the curb. Not off by even a centimeter.

Sure in your dreams, that's why they sealed it away for more then 70 years.

 :D


« Last Edit: May 20, 2018, 12:31:31 AM by Paul Ernst »

Offline Paul Ernst

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 564
  • Semper peratus semper idem
Re: The Limo Bullet Fragments....
« Reply #36 on: May 19, 2018, 11:36:23 PM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Actually, the smear on the curb was probably not caused by a bullet but by a tire lead weight. It is too unlikely that a bullet would just happen to strike precisely on the corner of the curb. Not off by even a centimeter.

What happened to the fragment that nicked Mr. Tague’s cheek? It flew on and was never found. It would be unlikely to have been found. It was pretty small. Dealey Plaza, while small for a shooting range, is quite big enough to make it difficult to find such a fragment.



On a living head? No. But ballistic tests do show a WCC/MC bullet will fragment upon strike a skull at near muzzle velocity.

Questions:

Can you find a single ballistic expert who says otherwise?

Have you ever read a book by a ballistic expert?




This is assuming a bullet that fragments would continue on a straight line. Real ballistic experts, like Larry Sturdivan, say that bullet fragments do not maintain a straight line and this has been demonstrated in photographs of bullet fragment paths through ballistic gel.

Question:

Can you find a single ballistic expert who says that bullet fragments continue through a human body in a straight line?


Until you find a ballistic expert who says this, extrapolating where a bullet or a fragment should end up is a waste of time. [/b]

Have you ever read a book by a ballistic expert?

Do you have ever read more then 1 book about ballistics.
You wrote before that you have no experience with firearms.

Better stay away from these kind of subjects!





 :D

Offline Paul Ernst

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 564
  • Semper peratus semper idem
Re: The Limo Bullet Fragments....
« Reply #37 on: May 19, 2018, 11:40:59 PM »


 ;D

JFK Assassination Forum

Re: The Limo Bullet Fragments....
« Reply #37 on: May 19, 2018, 11:40:59 PM »


Offline Joe Elliott

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 243
Re: The Limo Bullet Fragments....
« Reply #38 on: May 20, 2018, 01:55:30 AM »

You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

And they failed again to do a good reenactment.
And the sell it otherwise to the public.

Elvis has left the building again!


 ;D


Not a perfect reenactment. But a good one. And an honest one. They did not keep it a secret that the bullet though the ‘head’ of the model did not fragment. I learned that from watching the show. So, they made no effort to hide this problem.

I think the TV show would have benefited from a more careful study of Larry Sturdivan’s “The JFK Myths”. In the book, Mr. Sturdivan explains that the effect of the material that is struck by a bullet on that bullet (does it deform, does it fragment) mostly depends on the density of the material. I found on the internet that the density of common tiles varies from 2.195 (wall tile) to 2.387 (high fire porcelain). I think a little research could find a ceramic that close to the density of bone, 2.0, that is twice the density of water.

No, not a perfect reenactment. But a pretty good one. If it was done again, I would hope the company that provided the model would put some more thought into it. Maybe using a ‘skull’ not made of plastic, which has a low density, but of some type of ceramic with the same density and hopefully strength of bone. With this, the bullet would fragment and behave even more realistically than they got from the TV show.

Any sort of failure of the model to be realistic gives CTers a chance to build a case for conspiracy. Like if a realistic model would fragment the bullet and cause the fragments to veer off line, CTers won’t be able to say “Why didn’t the bullet hit the seat on November 22 as it did in the reenactment”. If the test could be run several times with several identical models, the viewers could see that the bullet fragments end up striking different places with each test. The bullet path after striking the ‘head’ is unpredictable.

Offline Joe Elliott

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 243
Re: The Limo Bullet Fragments....
« Reply #39 on: May 20, 2018, 02:11:05 AM »

You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Actually, the smear on the curb was probably not caused by a bullet but by a tire lead weight. It is too unlikely that a bullet would just happen to strike precisely on the corner of the curb. Not off by even a centimeter.

Sure in your dreams, that's why they sealed it away for more then 70 years.

 :D

Isn’t the curb kept at the National Archive, available for researchers to look at?

JFK Assassination Forum

Re: The Limo Bullet Fragments....
« Reply #39 on: May 20, 2018, 02:11:05 AM »