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Author Topic: The Magic Bullet  (Read 94053 times)

Online Andrew Mason

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Re: The Magic Bullet
« Reply #240 on: May 30, 2018, 06:41:48 AM »
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Any qualified links on those statements?

The  Warren  Commission  found  that  a  minimum  of  about  2.3  seconds  was  required  to fire,  reload  aim  and  fire  again  using  Oswald?s  rifle.(Frazier: WC 3 H 407). This  appears  to  be  based  on  the  FBI re-enactment  using  that  rifle.  FBI  ballistics  expert  Robert  Frazier,  who  actually  fired  3 shots  in  4.6  seconds,  said  ?4.6  seconds  is  firing  this  weapon  as  fast  as  the  bolt  can  be operated,  I  think?.Frazier: 3 H 407     The  FBI?s  Ronald  Simmons  noted  that  one  marksman  fired  three shots  in  4.6  seconds  using  the  telescopic  sight  and  three  shots  in  4.45  seconds  using  the iron  sights.(Simmons:  3 H 446).    There  was  no  time  placed  on  the  middle  shots  so  we  cannot  determine  the smallest  interval  between  shots.  None  of  the  FBI  marksmen  had  practised  with  the Mannlicher-Carcano  rifle.  Simmons  admitted  that  with  practice  the  shooter  would  likely be  able  to  operate  the  bolt  smoothly  without  moving  the  rifle  from  its  target.(3 H 449)  There was evidence that Oswald practised using the bolt action.(Testimony  of Marina Oswald:  1 H 53 and 65).

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Re: The Magic Bullet
« Reply #240 on: May 30, 2018, 06:41:48 AM »


Offline Tim Nickerson

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Re: The Magic Bullet
« Reply #241 on: May 30, 2018, 07:00:36 AM »
If the autopsy photos and x-rays are considered gospel to the LNers, then we know exactly how/what the MB did thru JFK's back->throat.



With a downward trajectory angle of 17 deg, the FMJ bullet entered JFK's back at T1, smashed thru C7 then exited thru a small hole at C6. If that's not magic, then I've got some beans you might be interested in.

The FMJ bullet entered at the level of C7. It did not smash through C7. It exited at the level of C7.

Offline Ray Mitcham

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Re: The Magic Bullet
« Reply #242 on: May 30, 2018, 01:19:28 PM »
http://www.readclip.com/JFK/JFK_MB_C7.jpg

I wonder why two different people were holding the ruler. To hide something?

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Re: The Magic Bullet
« Reply #242 on: May 30, 2018, 01:19:28 PM »


Offline Gary Craig

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Re: The Magic Bullet
« Reply #243 on: May 30, 2018, 03:29:10 PM »
The  Warren  Commission  found  that  a  minimum  of  about  2.3  seconds  was  required  to fire,  reload  aim  and  fire  again  using  Oswald?s  rifle.(Frazier: WC 3 H 407). This  appears  to  be  based  on  the  FBI re-enactment  using  that  rifle.  FBI  ballistics  expert  Robert  Frazier,  who  actually  fired  3 shots  in  4.6  seconds,  said  ?4.6  seconds  is  firing  this  weapon  as  fast  as  the  bolt  can  be operated,  I  think?.Frazier: 3 H 407     The  FBI?s  Ronald  Simmons  noted  that  one  marksman  fired  three shots  in  4.6  seconds  using  the  telescopic  sight  and  three  shots  in  4.45  seconds  using  the iron  sights.(Simmons:  3 H 446).    There  was  no  time  placed  on  the  middle  shots  so  we  cannot  determine  the smallest  interval  between  shots.  None  of  the  FBI  marksmen  had  practised  with  the Mannlicher-Carcano  rifle.  Simmons  admitted  that  with  practice  the  shooter  would  likely be  able  to  operate  the  bolt  smoothly  without  moving  the  rifle  from  its  target.(3 H 449)  There was evidence that Oswald practised using the bolt action.(Testimony  of Marina Oswald:  1 H 53 and 65).


The FBI's Ronald Simmons?????   WTF

"The  FBI?s  Ronald  Simmons  noted  that  one  marksman  fired  three shots  in  4.6  seconds  using  the  telescopic  sight  and  three  shots  in  4.45  seconds  using  the iron  sights.(Simmons:  3 H 446).


Mr. EISENBERG. Can you give us your position, Mr. Simmons?
Mr. SIMMONS. I am the Chief of the Infantry Weapons Evaluation Branch of the Ballistics Research Laboratory of the Department of the Army.
Mr. EISENBERG. And how long have you held this position?
Mr. SIMMONS. This position, about four years, and previous employment has been in these laboratories.


--------------------

"There was evidence that Oswald practised using the bolt action.(Testimony  of Marina Oswald:"

That's not evidence.

If you actually read her testimony you will see she didn't know what LHO was doing but was led by the

questioner into supporting the proposition of him practicing.


-------------------------

When the Army tested the Carcano, using 3 expert marksman, they concluded a person would need considerable experience with weapons and considerable experience in paticular with the Carcano to make the shots proposed by the WC.

Aside from the scope being misaligned and needing shims added before it could be adjusted and the iron sights being sighted @ 200yds which caused the rifle to fire high at lesser distances, they found two dificulties with firing the Carcano.

First, the difficulty of operating the bolt caused the shooter to take the sights off the target when cycling it between shots.

Second, the two stage trigger of the Carcano created a hair trigger during it's second stage of firing.

They concluded the shooter would need live firing practice to overcome these difficulties.

Can you show where Oswald aquired the considerable experience with the Carcano and paticulary the live firing experience he needed to do what is claimed he did?

~snip~

Mr. EISENBERG. Do you think a marksman who is less than a highly skilled marksman under those conditions would be able to shoot in the range of 1.2-mil aiming error?
Mr. SIMMONS. Obviously considerable experience would have to be in one's background to do so. And with this weapon, I think also considerable experience with this weapon, because of the amount of effort required to work the bolt.
Mr. EISENBERG. Would do what? You mean would improve the accuracy?
Mr. SIMMONS. Yes. In our experiments, the pressure to open the bolt was so great that we tended to move the rifle off the target, whereas with greater proficiency this might not have occurred.

~snip~

Mr. EISENBERG. When you say proficiency with this weapon, Mr. Simmons, could you go into detail as to what you mean--do you mean accuracy with this weapon, or familiarity with the weapon?
Mr. SIMMONS. I mean familiarity basically with two things. One is the action of the bolt itself, and the force required to open it; and two, the action of the trigger, which is a two-stage trigger.
Mr. EISENBERG. Can familiarity with the trigger and with the bolt be acquired in dry practice?
Mr. SIMMONS. Familiarity with the bolt can, probably as well as during live firing. But familiarity with the trigger would best be achieved with some firing.

~snip~

Mr. EISENBERG. Why is there this difference between familiarity with the bolt and familiarity with the trigger in dry firing?
Mr. SIMMONS. There tends to be a reaction between the firer and the weapon at the time the weapon is fired, due to the recoil impulse. And I do not believe the action of the bolt going home would sufficiently simulate the action of the recoil of the weapon.


Mr. SIMMONS. Yes. But there are two stages to the trigger. Our riflemen were all used to a trigger with a constant pull. When the slack was taken up, then they expected the round to fire. But actually when the slack is taken up, you tend to have a hair trigger here, which requires a bit of getting used to.
Mr. McCLOY. This does not have a hair trigger after the slack is taken up?
Mr. SIMMONS. This tends to have the hair trigger as soon as you move it after the slack is taken up. You achieve or you feel greater resistance to the movement of the trigger, and then ordinarily you would expect the weapon to have fired, and in this case then as you move it to overcome that, it fires immediately. And our firers were moving the shoulder into the weapon.

~snip~


« Last Edit: May 30, 2018, 04:28:58 PM by Gary Craig »

Online Andrew Mason

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Re: The Magic Bullet
« Reply #244 on: May 30, 2018, 03:59:05 PM »

The FBI's Ronald Simmons?????   WTF
...
Mr. EISENBERG. Can you give us your position, Mr. Simmons?
Mr. SIMMONS. I am the Chief of the Infantry Weapons Evaluation Branch of the Ballistics Research Laboratory of the Department of the Army.
Mr. EISENBERG. And how long have you held this position?
Mr. SIMMONS. This position, about four years, and previous employment has been in these laboratories.
And your point is?  What does this have to do with FBI Agent Miller firing 3 shots with the Oswald's bolt-action MC in those times (which is what Simmons was referring to)?
Quote
"There was evidence that Oswald practised using the bolt action.(Testimony  of Marina Oswald:"

That's not evidence.

If you actually read her testimony you will see she didn't know what LHO was doing but was led by the questioner into supporting the proposition of him practicing.
I am not sure what you are reading (1 H 65):

Mr. RANKIN. You have told us about llis practicing with the rifle, the telescopic lens, on the back porch at New Orleans, and also his using the bolt action that you heard from time to time. Will you describe that a little more fully to us, as best you remember?
Mrs. OSWALD. I cannot describe that in greater detail. I can only say that Lee would sit there with the rifle and open and close the bolt and clean it. No, he didn?t clean it at that time.
Yes-twice he did clean it.
Mr. RANKIN. And did he seem to be practicing with the telescopic lens, too, and sighting the gun on different objects?
Mrs. OSWALD. I don?t know. The rifle was always with this. I don?t know exactly how he practiced, because I was in the house, I was busy. I just knew that he sits there with his rifle. I was not interested in it.
Mr. RANKIN. Was this during the light of the day or during the darkness?
Mrs. OSWALD. During darkness.
Mr. RANKIN. Was it so dark that neighbors could not see him on the porch there with the gun?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
« Last Edit: May 30, 2018, 04:02:11 PM by Andrew Mason »

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Re: The Magic Bullet
« Reply #244 on: May 30, 2018, 03:59:05 PM »


Offline Gary Craig

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Re: The Magic Bullet
« Reply #245 on: May 30, 2018, 04:24:29 PM »
And your point is?  What does this have to do with FBI Agent Miller firing 3 shots with the Oswald's bolt-action MC in those times (which is what Simmons was referring to)?I am not sure what you are reading (1 H 65):

Mr. RANKIN. You have told us about llis practicing with the rifle, the telescopic lens, on the back porch at New Orleans, and also his using the bolt action that you heard from time to time. Will you describe that a little more fully to us, as best you remember?
Mrs. OSWALD. I cannot describe that in greater detail. I can only say that Lee would sit there with the rifle and open and close the bolt and clean it. No, he didn?t clean it at that time.
Yes-twice he did clean it.
Mr. RANKIN. And did he seem to be practicing with the telescopic lens, too, and sighting the gun on different objects?
Mrs. OSWALD. I don?t know. The rifle was always with this. I don?t know exactly how he practiced, because I was in the house, I was busy. I just knew that he sits there with his rifle. I was not interested in it.
Mr. RANKIN. Was this during the light of the day or during the darkness?
Mrs. OSWALD. During darkness.
Mr. RANKIN. Was it so dark that neighbors could not see him on the porch there with the gun?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

"And your point is?" 

Simmons was one of the WC's chief witnesses on the Carcano. You quoted him to back up a point and you

don't even know who he worked for??

LOL

--------------

Mrs. OSWALD. I don?t know. The rifle was always with this. I don?t know exactly how he practiced, because I was in the house, I was busy. I just knew that he sits there with his rifle. I was not interested in it.

Offline Matt Grantham

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Re: The Magic Bullet
« Reply #246 on: May 30, 2018, 05:31:43 PM »
A number of witnesses heard more than three shots. Furthermore, a good number heard two shots very close together. This would be impossible if a bolt-action rifle was used as claimed.

Ditto SS agent Kellerman's comment about a "flurry of shots."

.  It is called circular logic.


 Or the logical fallacy of begging the question for us philosophy nerds

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Re: The Magic Bullet
« Reply #246 on: May 30, 2018, 05:31:43 PM »


Offline Jerry Freeman

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Re: The Magic Bullet
« Reply #247 on: May 30, 2018, 06:14:31 PM »
  None  of  the  FBI  marksmen  had  practised  with  the Mannlicher-Carcano  rifle.
No wonder there. It was a falling apart piece of crap from 1940!
Quote
  There was evidence that Oswald practised using the bolt action.(Testimony  of Marina Oswald:  1 H 53 and 65).

Oh hell....Marina would have testified that she practiced working the bolt if she was told to.