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Author Topic: Lee Oswald The Cop Killer  (Read 350032 times)

Offline Walt Cakebread

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Re: Lee Oswald The Cop Killer
« Reply #1232 on: May 02, 2019, 08:52:48 PM »
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the Dallas Transit System advised the FBI that the bus was scheduled to come at 1:12,

No, Commission Document 630 says;

"The bus is scheduled to pass this point at about 1:12 PM"

And since when is being scheduled the same as actually passing at that exact time?

I wonder how Bill Brown seems to know for a fact "that a bus stopped at Jefferson and Patton at 1:12 and 1:22." I know he made that claim about these times several times in the past, but so far he has always failed to explain how he could possibly know this with at least enough certainty to make the claim at all.

But more importantly, I would love to see one LNr try and come up with a plausible scenario for Markham still being at 10th/Patton at 1:14 or 1:15 when she testified she left home "a little after 1" and the one block walk to the corner of 10th street would have taken her 2, perhaps 3 minutes.

The same thing goes for Bowley. He picked up his daughter at R.L. Thorntom School in Singing Holls at "about 12:55". School bells, in my experience, have a tendency to ring at the correct time every day! The drive from the school to 10th/Patton is about 7 miles long and takes roughly 13 minutes, making it absolutely possible and plausible for him to arrive at 10th street at 1.10 pm, like he said he did. But even if we are kind to the LNs and accept that Bowley didn't pick up his daughter and leave the school until 1 PM, he still would have arrived at 10th/Patton at 1:13, which of course would have been prior to the shooting of Tippit at 1:15, as the WC narrative claims.

These two timelines alone justify, IMO, the conclusion that Tippit was shot before 1:10 pm. But perhaps the LNs can provide a plausible scenario for these two timelines to be wrong...? I'll wait an see, but I won't hold my breath..

 I would love to see one LNr try and come up with a plausible scenario for Markham still being at 10th/Patton at 1:14 or 1:15 when she testified she left home "a little after 1" and the one block walk to the corner of 10th street would have taken her 2, perhaps 3 minutes.

The same thing goes for Bowley. He picked up his daughter at R.L. Thorntom School in Singing Holls at "about 12:55". School bells, in my experience, have a tendency to ring at the correct time every day! The drive from the school to 10th/Patton is about 7 miles long and takes roughly 13 minutes, making it absolutely possible and plausible for him to arrive at 10th street at 1.10 pm, like he said he did. But even if we are kind to the LNs and accept that Bowley didn't pick up his daughter and leave the school until 1 PM, he still would have arrived at 10th/Patton at 1:13, which of course would have been prior to the shooting of Tippit at 1:15, as the WC narrative claims.

These two timelines alone justify, IMO, the conclusion that Tippit was shot before 1:10 pm.

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Re: Lee Oswald The Cop Killer
« Reply #1232 on: May 02, 2019, 08:52:48 PM »


Offline Bill Brown

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Re: Lee Oswald The Cop Killer
« Reply #1233 on: May 07, 2019, 10:32:59 AM »
If Tippit was killed before 1:10, then all it really means is that Oswald was at Tenth and Patton a little before 1:10.

Helen Markham was on foot, walking south along Patton toward her bus stop, which
was on Jefferson Boulevard.  Markham was just reaching the northwest corner of
Tenth and Patton when she noticed Tippit's patrol car pass through the
intersection, heading east along Tenth Street.  Markham testified that the
patrol car pulled up to a man who was walking on the sidewalk on the south side
of Tenth Street.  Helen Markham positively identified Lee Oswald as the man she
saw talking to, and shoot, J.D. Tippit.  She testified that she saw Oswald run
from the scene, heading down Patton with a gun in his hand.
 
William Scoggins was sitting in his cab at the southeast corner of Tenth and
Patton.  Scoggins saw Tippit's patrol car pass slowly in front of his cab,
driving west to east along Tenth Street (Scoggins' cab was sitting on Patton,
facing north towards Tenth street).  Scoggins noticed that the patrol car pulled
up alongside a man who was walking on the sidewalk on the south side of Tenth
Street.  William Scoggins positively identified Lee Oswald as the man he saw
running towards his cab seconds after hearing gun shots.  Scoggins got out of
his cab with thoughts of running from the scene as Oswald headed straight
towards him after the shots rang out.  After realizing he had nowhere to hide,
Scoggins returned to his cab and ducked down behind it as he watched Oswald turn
the corner and head down Patton towards Jefferson.  Scoggins testified that
Oswald had a gun in his hand.
 
Barbara Davis was lying in bed inside her residence, which was the house at the
corner of Tenth and Patton.  She heard gunshots outside and went to the front
door, which faced Tenth Street.  She opened the screen door and noticed Helen
Markham across the street, screaming.  Davis then noticed a man cutting through
her front yard, holding a gun in his hands.  She testified that the man had the
gun cocked in his hands as if he were emptying it.  Barbara Davis positively
identified Lee Oswald as the man who she saw cut across her yard with a gun in
his hands.
 
Virginia Davis was in the living room of Barbara Davis' residence (400 E. Tenth
St.) when she heard gunshots outside.  Virginia Davis went to the front door
and, like Barbara, noticed Helen Markham across the street, screaming.  Davis
then noticed a man cutting across the front yard with a gun in his hands.  She
testified that the man was emptying shells out of the gun.  Virginia Davis
positively identified Lee Oswald as the man who she saw cut across the front
yard with a gun in his hands.
 
Ted Callaway was standing out on the front porch of the used-car lot office,
where he worked.  Callaway testified that he heard five pistol shots.  Callaway
testified that he believed the shots came from the vicinity of Tenth Street,
which was behind the office he worked in.  He went out to the sidewalk on the
east side of Patton and noticed Scoggin's cab parked up near the corner of
Patton at Tenth.  As Callaway watched the cab driver (Scoggins) hide beside his
cab, he noticed a man running across Patton from the east side of Patton to the
west side.  Callaway watched the man run down Patton towards Jefferson.  Ted
Callaway positively identified Lee Oswald as the man he saw run down Patton with
a gun in his hands.
 
Sam Guinyard worked at the same used-car lot as Ted Callaway.  Guinyard was out
on the lot washing one of the cars when he heard gunshots come from the
direction up toward Tenth Street.  From the car lot, Guinyard was looking north
toward Tenth in an attempt to see where the shots came from when he saw a man on
the sidewalk in between the first two houses on Tenth Street (400 E. Tenth and
404 E. Tenth).  Guinyard went toward the sidewalk on the east side of Patton and
saw the man cut across the yard of the house on the corner (400 E. Tenth, the
Davis residence) and proceeded to run south on Patton.  Guinyard said the man
had a gun in his hands and was emptying it of shells.  Sam Guinyard positively
identified Lee Oswald as the man he saw running with the gun in his hands.

Each of the above witnesses saw a man flee the vicinity of the Tippit murder.  Each of the above witnesses saw a gun in the man's hands.  Every single one of the above witnesses positively identified Lee Oswald as that man.
« Last Edit: May 07, 2019, 10:33:31 AM by Bill Brown »

Offline John Iacoletti

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Re: Lee Oswald The Cop Killer
« Reply #1234 on: May 07, 2019, 03:54:01 PM »
If Tippit was killed before 1:10, then all it really means is that Oswald was at Tenth and Patton a little before 1:10.

Or it means that it wasn't Oswald, and the invalid, biased and unfair lineups were invalid, biased and unfair.

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Re: Lee Oswald The Cop Killer
« Reply #1234 on: May 07, 2019, 03:54:01 PM »


Offline Gary Craig

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Re: Lee Oswald The Cop Killer
« Reply #1235 on: May 07, 2019, 05:11:06 PM »
If Tippit was killed before 1:10, then all it really means is that Oswald was at Tenth and Patton a little before 1:10.

Helen Markham was on foot, walking south along Patton toward her bus stop, which
was on Jefferson Boulevard.  Markham was just reaching the northwest corner of
Tenth and Patton when she noticed Tippit's patrol car pass through the
intersection, heading east along Tenth Street.  Markham testified that the
patrol car pulled up to a man who was walking on the sidewalk on the south side
of Tenth Street.  Helen Markham positively identified Lee Oswald as the man she
saw talking to, and shoot, J.D. Tippit.
  She testified that she saw Oswald run
from the scene, heading down Patton with a gun in his hand.
 
~snip~


"Helen Markham positively identified Lee Oswald as the man she
saw talking to, and shoot, J.D. Tippit."


 ???

from
"VINNIE IT IS ROUND"
by Mark Lane


                     "The Commission claimed that Mrs. Markham identified Lee Harvey Oswald as the man who shot
the policeman at a line up on November 22 and that in testimony before the Commission, Mrs. Markham confirmed her
positive identification of Lee Harvey Oswald as the man she saw kill Officer Tippit. Captain Fritz - who needed that
identification real quickly -- testified that the lineup was hurriedly arranged at 4:30 that afternoon, less than three
and a half hours after Tippit's death and less than that after Oswald's arrest. Mrs Markham was "quite hysterical"
when she arrived at police headquarters. Her state and the atmosphere in the lineup room are best described by the
record of her testimony."


Q: Now when you went into the room you looked these people over, these four men?

Markham: Yes , sir.

Q: Did you recognize anyone in the lineup?

Markham: No, sir

Q: You did not? Did you see anybody-I have asked you that question before-did you recognize anybody from their face?

          "Counsel wished to remind Mrs. Markham that when he had prepared her for her testimony, before
a record of her answers was made, the matter had been discussed. To prepare a witness for testimony may
be acceptable where adversary and hostile cross-examination is expected, and it is also a legitimate way of
preventing repetition and irrelevant conjecture. The record of the Warren Commission, however, reveals no
such cross-examination and was burdened to such a degree by repetition and irrelevance that the initial
preparation seems to have been for the purpose of leading the witness to give an appropiate answer."


Markham: From their face, no.

Q: Did you identify anybody in these four people?

Markham: I didn't know nobody.

Q: I know you didn't know nobody, but did anybody in that lineup look like anybody you had seen before?

Markham: No. I had never seen none of them, none of these men.

Q: No one of the four?

Markham: No one of them.

Q: No one of the four?

Markham: No, sir.

        "At this point counsel, a teacher of criminal law and procedure at the University of Southern California and
a member of the U.S. Judical Conference Advisory Committee on Federal Rules of Criminal Procedure, asked a
rather leading question. Mrs. Markham said that she recognized no one at the lineup; counsel tried five times for a
more acceptable answer. Then, departing a little from the legal procedure he teaches, he next asked his friendly but
disconcerting witness, "Was there a number two man in there?" Mrs. Markham replied, "Number two is the one I
picked." Counsel began another question: "I thought you just told me that you hadn't, but Mrs. Markham interrupted
to answer inexplicably, "I thought you wanted me to describe their clothing."


Counsel then inquired:

Q: You recognized him from his appearance?

Markham: I asked-I looked at him. When I saw this man I wasn't sure, but I had cold chills just run all over me.

        "A mystical identification at best. However, the Commission was satisfied that its lawyer had at last
obtained the right answer: "Addressing itself solely to the probative value of Mrs. Markham's contemporaneous
discription of the gunman and her identification of Oswald at a police lineup, the Commission considers her
testimony reliable."


Offline Gary Craig

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Re: Lee Oswald The Cop Killer
« Reply #1236 on: May 07, 2019, 05:14:49 PM »

Domingo Benavides said he got a very good look at Tippit's killer from about 15 feet away.

His description of Tippit's killer doesn't match a photo taken of LHO in DPD custody.


Testimony Of Domingo Benavides

Mr. BELIN - Where were you when your vehicle stopped?
Mr. BENAVIDES - About 15 foot, just directly across the street and maybe a car length away from the police car.

~snip~

Mr. Belin: Let me ask you now, I would like you to relate again the action of the man with the gun as you saw him now.

Mr. Benavides: As I saw him, I really--I mean really got a good view of the man after the bullets were fired he had just turned. He was just turning away........

~snip~

Mr. BENAVIDES - I remember the back of his head seemed like his hairline was sort of--looked like his hairline sort of went square instead of tapered off. and he looked like he needed a haircut for about 2 weeks, but his hair didn't taper off, it kind of went down and squared off and made his head look fiat in back.

~snip~


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Re: Lee Oswald The Cop Killer
« Reply #1236 on: May 07, 2019, 05:14:49 PM »


Offline Jerry Freeman

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Re: Lee Oswald The Cop Killer
« Reply #1237 on: May 07, 2019, 07:03:56 PM »
"Oswald's Jacket"--- https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,124.msg4343.html#msg4343
It just goes to show...there is nothing being presented here that has not already been presented before.

Online Martin Weidmann

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Re: Lee Oswald The Cop Killer
« Reply #1238 on: May 09, 2019, 10:55:38 PM »
Ain't it just remarkable how the LNs can't produce a plausible scenario for the combined timelines of Markham and Bowley to work, for the shooting of Tippit 1.14 or 1.15 pm

Instead they just ignore it and claim Oswald must have been there at or before 1.10 - even if, by their own narrative, he couldn't have gotten there by that time on foot.

No response also to the unexplained 10 minute gap in Scoggins' timeline.

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Re: Lee Oswald The Cop Killer
« Reply #1238 on: May 09, 2019, 10:55:38 PM »


Offline Bill Brown

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Re: Lee Oswald The Cop Killer
« Reply #1239 on: May 10, 2019, 12:34:18 AM »
Ain't it just remarkable how the LNs can't produce a plausible scenario for the combined timelines of Markham and Bowley to work, for the shooting of Tippit 1.14 or 1.15 pm

Instead they just ignore it and claim Oswald must have been there at or before 1.10 - even if, by their own narrative, he couldn't have gotten there by that time on foot.

No response also to the unexplained 10 minute gap in Scoggins' timeline.

So.......

Bowley's watch was 100% correct.

Markham's estimate of what time it was when she left her residence was 100% spot on.

The clock on the wall at Methodist was 100% perfect.

....... and the Dallas police tapes were tampered with.

Do I have it right?