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Author Topic: Lee Oswald The Cop Killer  (Read 102366 times)

Online Mitch Todd

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Re: Lee Oswald The Cop Killer
« Reply #680 on: June 19, 2018, 12:14:50 AM »
Just so everyone knows Todd is playing games. Automatic shells and revolver shells look differently and are marked differently. Todd must be saying that Hill was majorly incompetent to confuse the two.

Well, at least we know that Mr Caprio doesn't know much about firearms or ammunition. And, no, Rob, you simply have no idea, no matter what you may tell yourself.

It doesn't matter what kind of gun you think a particular cartridge is used for. There are automatic pistols that fire "revolver" ammunition, and revolvers that fire "automatic" ammunition. I've even given you specific examples of semiautomatic weapons that come from the factory chambered to fire .38 special, .44 magnum, etc.  That seemed to fall into Rob's memory hole in no time, flat.




Offline Tim Nickerson

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Re: Lee Oswald The Cop Killer
« Reply #681 on: June 19, 2018, 01:27:26 AM »
Well, at least we know that Mr Caprio doesn't know much about firearms or ammunition.

He doesn't know much about the Constitution either. In fact, he's pathetically ignorant about most things.

Offline Walt Cakebread

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Re: Lee Oswald The Cop Killer
« Reply #682 on: June 19, 2018, 01:37:52 AM »
If I understand Hill's history with his own statements

 He calls in at 1.40 and reprts automatic shells

Denies this at the WC

30 tears later says he did find the automatic shells

 My opinion is that does not make his story completely untenable since a lot of folks tended to change their initial stories for the WC

I believe that Hill was one of the key conspirators on the DPD......He's a liar.

Online Mitch Todd

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Re: Lee Oswald The Cop Killer
« Reply #683 on: June 19, 2018, 03:19:37 AM »
He doesn't know much about the Constitution either. In fact, he's pathetically ignorant about most things.

This time, it's a case of getting himself in trouble by knowing a little about something when knowing a little doesn't help you a lot. Ammunition designed to be used in rovolvers really does tend to use rimmed cases. This allows the gun manufacturer to headspace the cartridge against the back of the cylinder. By doing that, the gun manufacturer only has to run one boring operation per chamber, which saves them a lot of money (though some revolvers actually do overbore the butt end of each chamber just enough to contain the cartridge rim). However, there is no mechanical reason that forces them to do so. Most automatic/semi-auto pistol-caliber ammo is either semi-rimmed or rimless and  headspaces the cartridge at the case mouth instead of the rim. The purpose of doing it this way is to make the kinds of magazines used in these weapons easier to design and manufacture. Again there isn't an inherent mechanical reason preventing the use of rimmed cartridges in automatic and semiautomatic weapons. In fact, the .303 British and Russian 7.62x54R are both rimmed rifle-caliber cartridges that were fired from machine guns by the zillions (and possibly even gazillions) over several decades and a couple of World Wars without too much trouble.

I'm told that, over the years, a number of manufacturers made semi-auto pistols chambered for .38 special. The most famous of these were the versions of the Colt M1911; thousands were made, and they were often used for target competitions. Competitors who liked using the 1911, but preferred a lighter recoil than the original .45 ACP snapped them up. Conversely, various concerns have made revolvers chambered for "auto" rounds. I hear that Taurus in particular has taken to offering a wide range of revolvers chambered for .380 ACP, 9mm, etc.
   
see here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Headspace_%28firearms%29 if you don't know what "headspace" refers to.
« Last Edit: June 19, 2018, 03:21:33 AM by Mitch Todd »

Online Martin Weidmann

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Re: Lee Oswald The Cop Killer
« Reply #684 on: June 19, 2018, 03:21:46 AM »
That's right. And you said No. You were wrong.

Why only bold that part?

Particularly if it's a non-fungible item. If the defense has something concrete to present to the jury once the evidence has been admitted then fine. However, they will not be allowed free reign to spout unsupported claims against the evidence. Not in any properly run court anyway.

You're right. It is a bit difficult for me to understand. Post the transcript. That should help.

That's right. And you said No. You were wrong.

No. It's clear by now that you and I attach a different meaning to the word "authentication". In a trial setting a judge will basically admit any evidence that he feels the jury should see because it has a significant connection to the case. However, the admittance alone does not mean the evidence is validated on it's probative value. It's a bit like a judge ruling, based on basic information from the prosecution that there is enough material to justify that somebody should be held over for trial. That alone doesn't mean that the person is guilty, it only means the judge wants his guilt or innocence to be determined in a trial. The same goes for admitted evidence.

Why only bold that part?

Particularly if it's a non-fungible item. If the defense has something concrete to present to the jury once the evidence has [sic] been admitted then fine. However, they will not be allowed free reign to spout unsupported claims against the evidence. Not in any properly run court anyway.


Great, so you accept that your basic implicit argument [that evidence admitted at trial is already authenticated and needs no further chain of custody] is incorrect?

Online Martin Weidmann

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Re: Lee Oswald The Cop Killer
« Reply #685 on: June 19, 2018, 03:27:42 AM »
This time, it's a case of getting himself in trouble by knowing a little about something when knowing a little doesn't help you a lot. Ammunition designed to be used in rovolvers really does tend to use rimmed cases. This allows the gun manufacturer to headspace the cartridge against the back of the cylinder. By doing that, the gun manufacturer only has to run one boring operation per chamber, which saves them a lot of money (though some revolvers actually do overbore the butt end of each chamber just enough to contain the cartridge rim). However, there is no mechanical reason that forces them to do so. Most automatic/semi-auto pistol-caliber ammo is either semi-rimmed or rimless and  headspaces the cartridge at the case mouth instead of the rim. The purpose of doing it this way is to make the kinds of magazines used in these weapons easier to design and manufacture. Again there isn't an inherent mechanical reason preventing the use of rimmed cartridges in automatic and semiautomatic weapons. In fact, the .303 British and Russian 7.62x54R are both rimmed rifle-caliber cartridges that were fired from machine guns by the zillions (and possibly even gazillions) over several decades and a couple of World Wars without too much trouble.

I'm told that, over the years, a number of manufacturers made semi-auto pistols chambered for .38 special. The most famous of these were the versions of the Colt M1911; thousands were made, and they were often used for target competitions. Competitors who liked using the 1911, but preferred a lighter recoil than the original .45 ACP snapped them up. Conversely, various concerns have made revolvers chambered for "auto" rounds. I hear that Taurus in particular has taken to offering a wide range of revolvers chambered for .380 ACP, 9mm, etc.
   
see here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Headspace_%28firearms%29 if you don't know what "headspace" refers to.


Mr. Todd, it would be nice if you made an actual contribution to this forum instead of simply attacking people who clearly disagree with you.

I'm told that, over the years, a number of manufacturers made semi-auto pistols chambered for .38 special.

If your words are to be believed, you seem to be well connected to all sorts of unidentified people who seem to "tell you" all sorts of things. It's either that or you are simply full of hot air.

And using Wikipedia to make a point is a bit pathetic for a guy who claims being told things?.. just saying!

Offline Zeon Mason

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Re: Lee Oswald The Cop Killer
« Reply #686 on: June 19, 2018, 04:46:06 AM »
How did the shells stay in Oswalds loose brown shirt pocket all thru the entire "falling into the seats" struggle with McDonald?

Why is a nearly pristine condition experied bus transfer pass in Oswald brown shirt, if he CHANGED his shirt at his boarding room?

How did that bus transfer pass remain unbent, or twisted, during all that struggling, the outside of the theater where Oswald looks like his brown shirt is about to be taken off him by the DPD?

Why are there no fingerprints from McWatters or Oswald on the bus transfer ticket. Its PAPER, and paper easily retains persperation, oil, and sodium chloride, and even if the persiration evaportates, silver nitrate will react with sodium chloride particle that remain (up to days, weeks, years old).

Online Mitch Todd

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Re: Lee Oswald The Cop Killer
« Reply #687 on: June 19, 2018, 05:42:17 AM »

Mr. Todd, it would be nice if you made an actual contribution to this forum instead of simply attacking people who clearly disagree with you.

I'm told that, over the years, a number of manufacturers made semi-auto pistols chambered for .38 special.

If your words are to be believed, you seem to be well connected to all sorts of unidentified people who seem to "tell you" all sorts of things. It's either that or you are simply full of hot air.

And using Wikipedia to make a point is a bit pathetic for a guy who claims being told things?.. just saying!

If you think I am full of hot air, you are free to demonstrate it. So is Mr Caprio. And anyone else who wishes to do so. However, I do not see either one of you actually making such an effort.

Sometimes, I say "I'm told that...." because I ask, and the people I ask either think my interest in the JFK case is a pointless waste of time, or simply don't care to be quoted because they don't want another JFK obsessive wasting even more of their time than I do. I also have a lot of normally useless firearms knowledge, partly from shooting off and on, partly from knowing a number of serious shooters, gun collectors, etc. I've also read a fair amount on guns, rifles, and pistols, though that is mostly tied directly to the assassination. Sometimes it runs together, so it's hard to specifically cite a particular source. Once in a while, I say some half remembered thing where I remembered the wrong half. I welcome being set straight in those cases, but it has to be straight. 

If you doubt me about a .38 special version of the Colt 1911, you can look here:

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2014/06/13/38-special-colt-1911/

[For that matter: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smith_%26_Wesson_Model_52]


And if you don't think anyone makes revolvers in "auto" calibers, you can look here:

https://www.taurususa.com/gun-selector-results.cfm?series=905&toggle=tr
https://www.taurususa.com/gun-selector-results.cfm?series=380&toggle=tr

Speaking of non-traditional revolver ammunition, these guys also make revolvers chambered for .410 gauge shotgun shells:

https://www.taurususa.com/gun-selector-results.cfm?series=JPD&toggle=tr

Probably useful if you need to safeguard you're prone to attack from doves and pigeons.


BTW, Just for reference, this is what Rob C has had to offer as his part in this particular exchange:

"Baloney. Automatic and pistol shells look nothing alike. An experienced officer like Hill wouldn't make that mistake."

"Blah, blah, blah. Even Dale Myers said the automatic shells showed 'AUTO' and the revolver shells showed '.38 Special'.You would have to think that Hill couldn't read to think he made the mistake claimed."

"Just so everyone knows Todd is playing games. Automatic shells and revolver shells look differently and are marked differently. Todd must be saying that Hill was majorly incompetent to confuse the two."

Mostly, he just baldly asserts stuff then pointlessly accuses me of "playing games." The only source he references at all is Dale Meyers, who I doubt would be considered a firearms expert in any way. And not one word from you.





« Last Edit: June 19, 2018, 06:05:52 AM by Mitch Todd »

Offline Matt Grantham

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Re: Lee Oswald The Cop Killer
« Reply #688 on: June 19, 2018, 05:42:13 PM »
"Dallas researcher Michael Brownlow interviewed Doris Holan, who lived directly across the street from the shooting, in a second-floor apartment at 409 East Tenth (researcher Bill Pulte accompanied Brownlow on one of his two interviews with Holan shortly before her death in 2000). She said that a police car had appeared in the driveway between the two houses (404 and 410 East Tenth) at the spot where Tippit was killed. Whether Tippit did so intentionally or coincidentally, he had blocked that driveway, which led to an alley at mid-block, parallel to both East Tenth and Jefferson Boulevard. Tippit, while driving eastward, may have been trying to use his squad car to prevent another police car from leaving the driveway. Holan said when she heard shots and looked out her window, the other police car was heading down the driveway approaching Tippit's vehicle.

... 'She saw a man leaving the scene, moving westward toward Patton... Near the (second) police car she also saw a man in the driveway walking toward the street, where Tippit's car was parked.' That man went up to where Tippit was lying, looked down to inspect the officer's head, and retreated back down the driveway, with the unidentified police car backing up at the same time to the alley. So Holan reported at least three suspicious men at the scene, including two men on foot and the driver of the second police car. Whoever killed Tippit may have fled in that car or in another vehicle or on foot through that alley adjacent to the shooting scene. And Tippit may have been shot by two men, a possibility the ballistics evidence, with different kinds of ammunition, might suggest, even though that evidence is unreliable. Most (not all) witnesses reported a man fleeing around the corner and up Patton toward Jefferson, which would be compatible with Holan's account.

...Michael Brownlow in 1970 found the other witness to the second police car, Sam Guinyard, a porter at a used-car lot at 501 East Jefferson who worked with Ted Calloway. Guinyard told the Commission that at the time of the shooting, he was standing 'at the  back (of the car lot), right at the alley back there' and about ten feet from Patton. Guinyard failed to mention the second police car when he gave that testimony...


 This of course is directly tied to question of Croy in particular being the first officer at the scene



 I am also trying to gather a list of how many of witnesses describe the Oswald looking suspect as having a white undershirt and a white jacket, or just a white or light colored zippered jacket. Tatum, and Markham for sure, and it seems like several others. I have seen the response to this problem of the lack of the dark overshirt is that this Oswald had the brown shirt wrapped around his waist?


 Also can anyone help me on Johnny Brewers statements in regard to what descriptions he had over the radio, or otherwise, to the suspect from either the JFK shooting or Tippits It sounds like, from what I hear from some experts, that he knew of the Tippit shooting at 1:35 when he claims his encounter begins with the individual he eventually watches sneak into the theater
« Last Edit: June 19, 2018, 09:32:40 PM by Matt Grantham »

Offline Joffrey van de Wiel

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Re: Lee Oswald The Cop Killer
« Reply #689 on: June 19, 2018, 11:03:57 PM »
"Dallas researcher Michael Brownlow interviewed Doris Holan, who lived directly across the street from the shooting, in a second-floor apartment at 409 East Tenth (researcher Bill Pulte accompanied Brownlow on one of his two interviews with Holan shortly before her death in 2000). She said that a police car had appeared in the driveway between the two houses (404 and 410 East Tenth) at the spot where Tippit was killed. Whether Tippit did so intentionally or coincidentally, he had blocked that driveway, which led to an alley at mid-block, parallel to both East Tenth and Jefferson Boulevard. Tippit, while driving eastward, may have been trying to use his squad car to prevent another police car from leaving the driveway. Holan said when she heard shots and looked out her window, the other police car was heading down the driveway approaching Tippit's vehicle.

... 'She saw a man leaving the scene, moving westward toward Patton... Near the (second) police car she also saw a man in the driveway walking toward the street, where Tippit's car was parked.' That man went up to where Tippit was lying, looked down to inspect the officer's head, and retreated back down the driveway, with the unidentified police car backing up at the same time to the alley. So Holan reported at least three suspicious men at the scene, including two men on foot and the driver of the second police car. Whoever killed Tippit may have fled in that car or in another vehicle or on foot through that alley adjacent to the shooting scene. And Tippit may have been shot by two men, a possibility the ballistics evidence, with different kinds of ammunition, might suggest, even though that evidence is unreliable. Most (not all) witnesses reported a man fleeing around the corner and up Patton toward Jefferson, which would be compatible with Holan's account.

...Michael Brownlow in 1970 found the other witness to the second police car, Sam Guinyard, a porter at a used-car lot at 501 East Jefferson who worked with Ted Calloway. Guinyard told the Commission that at the time of the shooting, he was standing 'at the  back (of the car lot), right at the alley back there' and about ten feet from Patton. Guinyard failed to mention the second police car when he gave that testimony...

This of course is directly tied to question of Croy in particular being the first officer at the scene




 

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