Lee Oswald The Cop Killer

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Author Topic: Lee Oswald The Cop Killer  (Read 226395 times)

Offline Dan O'meara

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Re: Lee Oswald The Cop Killer
« Reply #2670 on: May 24, 2022, 03:47:19 AM »
How did you determine that this is Brewer?

No other motorcycle cop reported riding the wrong way up Elm.

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Re: Lee Oswald The Cop Killer
« Reply #2670 on: May 24, 2022, 03:47:19 AM »

Online John Iacoletti

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Re: Lee Oswald The Cop Killer
« Reply #2671 on: May 25, 2022, 01:23:30 AM »
There is no "narrative" that is conclusively supported by the totality of the evidence in this case. I'd wager there are many cases where the narrative isn't conclusively supported by the evidence. Yet a determination must still be made.
At the heart of any criminal case are competing "narratives" from which the jury must choose. This is why Common Sense is of fundamental importance.

You seem to have a fundamental misunderstanding of the purpose of a criminal trial. It is for a jury to decide if the state has proven that the defendant committed the crime. No “narrative” is necessary beyond “s/he committed the crime and here is our evidence”. The defendant does not have to figure out who really did it, or make up a better sounding story.

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This isn't a trial.
There is no "burden of proof".
Nit-picking at the details is meaningless.
It is a question of competing narratives and which, however imperfect, fits best with the evidence related to this case.

This is remarkable. In one paragraph you talk about what you think juries must do in a criminal case and in the next you say this isn’t a trial.

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We have very different ideas about what "common sense" is.
You seem to think "common sense" is the same as a belief system - people believing the moon is made of cheese because they've been told to believe that.

There is no difference in believing that the moon is made of cheese because you’ve been told to believe that and believing that, for example, Oswald had a disassembled Carcano in the package that Frazier saw because you’ve been told to believe it. There’s no evidence to support either belief (or “narrative” if you prefer). Appealing to “common sense” is not a substitute for that evidence. I don’t have to make up a different story about what was in the package when there is no evidence for the rifle story.

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In my opinion, it is an intuitive rationalising based on our experiences as human beings.

Humans “intuitively rationalised” that lightning bolts were thrown by Zeus, based on their experiences as human beings.

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"What goes up must come down", is a good example of common sense. There's no need to have studied physics or have even heard of the concept of gravity to appreciate this as a general "truism".

Sure, until you come across a helium balloon or the Voyager probe.

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I didn't mention "answers". Why are you suddenly talking about "answers"?
What is the best narrative?
Is there a better narrative than the LNer one.

Yes. Given that the LNer narrative cannot be demonstrated to be true, then (as I mentioned), the best narrative is “undetermined”, or the null hypothesis. If you want to try to make up a superior narrative to “undetermined”, that’s admirable, but it doesn’t give the “Oswald did it” story any more credence.

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Reasonable Doubt is not an empirical measure, it is a measure of Common Sense. It is a subjective measure.
Logic is not interested in Reasonable Doubt, it is only interested in Zero Doubt.

Agreed, but we’re back to the trial context again. Absolute certainty about anything is impossible, but that doesn’t mean that a 1% story automatically wins until somebody makes up a 2% story.

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It is easily argued that, as the assistant Appointments Secretary to the President of the United States, Powers is an expert in timekeeping.

Easily argued doesn’t mean there is any reason to believe that it’s true. It’s easily argued that the world is flat.

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It is the basis of his job. His job is specifically related to keeping a track of time. And not just for anyone, it's for the most powerful man on the planet at that time. And the key piece of equipment for this job must be his watch, which, one would imagine, has to be incredibly reliable.

Unless Powers ever said how and when he calibrated his watch, this is pure speculation based on imagination.

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His testimony on this matter must be considered credible.

His testimony wasn’t about how precise he kept his watch.

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He states this himself:

"In accordance with my custom, I was very much concerned about our timing and at just about that point I looked at my watch and noted that it was almost exactly 12:30 p.m."

But you claimed that his custom was that “he kept a close eye on his watch regarding the timekeeping of JFK's appointments”. He didn’t say that. He said it was his custom to be concerned about their timing.

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Greer is testifying to seeing Kellerman look at his watch and say "12:30". That's it.
It can be concluded beyond a reasonable doubt that Kellerman's watch read 12:30pm as:
a) This is what Kellerman states
b) This is the time on the Hertz clock
c) This is the time on Powers' watch
d) This is the timestamp on the DP tapes

It may not be an Absolute Truth but it is a reasonable conclusion.

It may be a reasonable conclusion that they all put the shots in Dealey Plaza at about 12:30. That doesn’t mean that it’s reasonable to conclude that they were all set independently or that they corresponded to real time.

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The impression given here is that the two dispatchers are somehow isolated from each other.

I never said anything about their proximity to each other. Just that their time announcements were based on separate clocks of unknown synchrony.
« Last Edit: May 25, 2022, 01:33:31 AM by John Iacoletti »

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Re: Lee Oswald The Cop Killer
« Reply #2671 on: May 25, 2022, 01:23:30 AM »

Offline Dan O'meara

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Re: Lee Oswald The Cop Killer
« Reply #2672 on: May 25, 2022, 01:24:31 AM »
This is how Frances Cason describes the situation in the radio dispatchers office:

Mrs. Cason: These are the initials of Officer M. J. Jackson who was working on the radio with Officer C. E. Hulse at the time the calls were dispatched. The way our radio is set up part of the squads are handled by this officer on one side of the board and part of the squads and the ambulances and APB, which is traffic investigators are handled by the officer on the other side of the radio board, and Mr. Jackson was sitting on the side of the board that would handle a call in the downtown area.

She appears to be describing a situation where both dispatchers sit at the same radio board. This implies the dispatchers are sat in close proximity. This seems to be confirmed by Gerald Henslee:

Mr. Henslee: Well, in this instance, I was not only supervising the channel 1 radio and the incoming radio calls, but was the police dispatcher for channel 2, covering the special event of the arrival of the President of the United States, President Kennedy.

On the day of the assassination Henslee and Murray are sat at the radio board and Henslee is across both channels.
I find it hard to believe that, in this given situation, each dispatcher is unaware of the calls of the other.
As such, I find it even harder to believe that one channel can wander off from the other by a minute let alone five minutes. Particularly as there are regular intervals when both dispatchers call the same timestamp:

12:34
12:35
12:36
12:40
12:45
12:51
12:54
1:11
1:12
1:19

The timestamp at 12:45pm is a particularly clear example of both channels being in synch with each other:



The available evidence suggests, in terms timestamps, the events in Dealey Plaza and the DP dispatch office are in synch at 12:30pm
Brewers' call on channel 2, between 12:37 and 12:40pm, is supported by the picture of him riding the wrong way up Elm at 12:39pm
Both channels are in synch at 12:45pm and there is no evidence I can find, in the tape transcripts or otherwise, that suggests the channels go out of synch up to the point of Bowley's call.





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Re: Lee Oswald The Cop Killer
« Reply #2672 on: May 25, 2022, 01:24:31 AM »

Online John Iacoletti

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Re: Lee Oswald The Cop Killer
« Reply #2673 on: May 25, 2022, 01:49:57 AM »
I find it hard to believe that, in this given situation, each dispatcher is unaware of the calls of the other.
As such, I find it even harder to believe that one channel can wander off from the other by a minute let alone five minutes.

Finding something “hard to believe” isn’t particularly dispositive. Particularly when Bowles said the clocks couldn’t be relied upon to be in synch.


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Particularly as there are regular intervals when both dispatchers call the same timestamp:

You couldn’t possibly know that they called the same timestamp at the same time. Those transcripts are aligned with each other based on the time announcements. You’re making a circular argument.

The Brewer thing is actually a good catch. But even if that is Brewer, his broadcast was also on channel 2, so that doesn’t add any new information to help with the Tippit timings.

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Re: Lee Oswald The Cop Killer
« Reply #2673 on: May 25, 2022, 01:49:57 AM »

Offline Dan O'meara

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Re: Lee Oswald The Cop Killer
« Reply #2674 on: May 25, 2022, 02:51:12 AM »
Finding something “hard to believe” isn’t particularly dispositive. Particularly when Bowles said the clocks couldn’t be relied upon to be in synch.

It's nice of you to leave out why I find it hard to believe.
The situation is this:

Murray and Henslee are sat at the same radio board.
Not only is Henslee dispatcher 2 he is also supervising channel 1
Both dispatchers have their own clocks
There is no reason to believe Henslee is unaware of the timestamps Murray is giving.
If Murray's clock drifts out by 5 minutes their is no reason to believe Henslee would not notice this, particularly as he is supervising channel 1
The only logical way channel 1 timestamps could drift out by 5 minutes, unnoticed by Henslee, would be if both clocks independently drifted out by this unprecedented amount of time, at the same rate.
Common sense dictates that this is so unlikely as to be disregarded as a consideration.

That's why I find it hard to believe.

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You couldn’t possibly know that they called the same timestamp at the same time.

I never said this.

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Those transcripts are aligned with each other based on the time announcements.

I never mentioned anything about the alignment of the transcripts.

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You’re making a circular argument.

You're making things up

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The Brewer thing is actually a good catch. But even if that is Brewer, his broadcast was also on channel 2, so that doesn’t add any new information to help with the Tippit timings.

The Brewer thing is just to demonstrate that channel 2 is still in synch with the events in Dealey Plaza at 12:39pm

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Re: Lee Oswald The Cop Killer
« Reply #2674 on: May 25, 2022, 02:51:12 AM »

Online John Iacoletti

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Re: Lee Oswald The Cop Killer
« Reply #2675 on: May 25, 2022, 05:14:21 AM »
It's nice of you to leave out why I find it hard to believe.

That’s because it doesn’t matter what you believe.

You don’t know that Murray and Henslee “sat at the same radio board”. Neither Cason or Henslee said that. That was just something you read into it. And obviously the two radio dispatcher clocks could drift apart without them being aware of it right away because Bowles said that they did.

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I never said this.

You claimed that “there are regular intervals when both dispatchers call the same timestamp”. You can’t possibly know that.

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The Brewer thing is just to demonstrate that channel 2 is still in synch with the events in Dealey Plaza at 12:39pm

Ok.

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Re: Lee Oswald The Cop Killer
« Reply #2675 on: May 25, 2022, 05:14:21 AM »

Offline John Mytton

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Re: Lee Oswald The Cop Killer
« Reply #2676 on: May 25, 2022, 05:45:26 AM »
This is how Frances Cason describes the situation in the radio dispatchers office:

Mrs. Cason: These are the initials of Officer M. J. Jackson who was working on the radio with Officer C. E. Hulse at the time the calls were dispatched. The way our radio is set up part of the squads are handled by this officer on one side of the board and part of the squads and the ambulances and APB, which is traffic investigators are handled by the officer on the other side of the radio board, and Mr. Jackson was sitting on the side of the board that would handle a call in the downtown area.

She appears to be describing a situation where both dispatchers sit at the same radio board. This implies the dispatchers are sat in close proximity. This seems to be confirmed by Gerald Henslee:

Mr. Henslee: Well, in this instance, I was not only supervising the channel 1 radio and the incoming radio calls, but was the police dispatcher for channel 2, covering the special event of the arrival of the President of the United States, President Kennedy.

On the day of the assassination Henslee and Murray are sat at the radio board and Henslee is across both channels.
I find it hard to believe that, in this given situation, each dispatcher is unaware of the calls of the other.
As such, I find it even harder to believe that one channel can wander off from the other by a minute let alone five minutes. Particularly as there are regular intervals when both dispatchers call the same timestamp:

12:34
12:35
12:36
12:40
12:45
12:51
12:54
1:11
1:12
1:19

The timestamp at 12:45pm is a particularly clear example of both channels being in synch with each other:



The available evidence suggests, in terms timestamps, the events in Dealey Plaza and the DP dispatch office are in synch at 12:30pm
Brewers' call on channel 2, between 12:37 and 12:40pm, is supported by the picture of him riding the wrong way up Elm at 12:39pm
Both channels are in synch at 12:45pm and there is no evidence I can find, in the tape transcripts or otherwise, that suggests the channels go out of synch up to the point of Bowley's call.

Nice work, to help visualize what the DPD may have looked like, these are some random Police radio rooms and as expected they are similar to how the Dallas radio room is described with both operators being reasonably close.











JohnM

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Re: Lee Oswald The Cop Killer
« Reply #2676 on: May 25, 2022, 05:45:26 AM »

Offline Dan O'meara

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Re: Lee Oswald The Cop Killer
« Reply #2677 on: May 25, 2022, 09:10:12 AM »
That’s because it doesn’t matter what you believe.

You don’t know that Murray and Henslee “sat at the same radio board”. Neither Cason or Henslee said that. That was just something you read into it.

Cason said:
"The way our radio is set up part of the squads are handled by this officer on one side of the board and part of the squads and the ambulances and APB, which is traffic investigators are handled by the officer on the other side of the radio board..."

The [singular] radio board.
I'm not reading anything into it, that's how English works.
Cason does not say Murray was sat at one board and Henslee was sat at another.
They were sat at the same radio board.
You might believe there's another way of interpreting what Cason said, but it doesn't matter what you believe.

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And obviously the two radio dispatcher clocks could drift apart without them being aware of it right away because Bowles said that they did.

Wrong. Bowles said the clocks "could" drift apart.
You seem to believe just because Bowles said it "could" happen, that it "did" happen.
And, if it did happen, it is possible neither dispatcher would notice it "right away", but immensely unlikely it wouldn't be noticed as the timestamps drifted further and further apart, until there was a five minute difference [ a difference Bowles never even hinted at].

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You claimed that “there are regular intervals when both dispatchers call the same timestamp”. You can’t possibly know that.

All the available evidence points to the conclusion that this is the case.
There is nothing to suggest otherwise. Is there?
« Last Edit: May 25, 2022, 09:11:22 AM by Dan O'meara »

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Re: Lee Oswald The Cop Killer
« Reply #2677 on: May 25, 2022, 09:10:12 AM »

Online Martin Weidmann

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Re: Lee Oswald The Cop Killer
« Reply #2678 on: May 25, 2022, 05:49:03 PM »
Cason said:
"The way our radio is set up part of the squads are handled by this officer on one side of the board and part of the squads and the ambulances and APB, which is traffic investigators are handled by the officer on the other side of the radio board..."

The [singular] radio board.
I'm not reading anything into it, that's how English works.
Cason does not say Murray was sat at one board and Henslee was sat at another.
They were sat at the same radio board.
You might believe there's another way of interpreting what Cason said, but it doesn't matter what you believe.

Wrong. Bowles said the clocks "could" drift apart.
You seem to believe just because Bowles said it "could" happen, that it "did" happen.
And, if it did happen, it is possible neither dispatcher would notice it "right away", but immensely unlikely it wouldn't be noticed as the timestamps drifted further and further apart, until there was a five minute difference [ a difference Bowles never even hinted at].

All the available evidence points to the conclusion that this is the case.
There is nothing to suggest otherwise. Is there?

And, if it did happen, it is possible neither dispatcher would notice it "right away", but immensely unlikely it wouldn't be noticed as the timestamps drifted further and further apart, until there was a five minute difference [ a difference Bowles never even hinted at].

The five minute difference would have been between what Bowles described as "police time" and "real time". The dispatcher would not be aware of any difference, because they had no way of knowing if and by how much their own clocks (which they related to the master clock in the room) would be behind or faster than "real time".

If there was a difference between "real time" and the master clock of two minutes and a difference of two minutes between the master clock and the clocks used by the dispatchers, you already have a difference of four minutes between "real time" and the dispatcher's clocks.

It doesn't have to be proven conclusively what the exact time difference, to the precise second, was between the dispatcher's clocks and/or time stamps and "real time". The mere possibility that Bowles basically told us that the system wasn't set up to give "real time" is enough to conclude that the time stamps called out but dispatcher can not be relied upon as being accurate.


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Re: Lee Oswald The Cop Killer
« Reply #2678 on: May 25, 2022, 05:49:03 PM »

Online John Iacoletti

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Re: Lee Oswald The Cop Killer
« Reply #2679 on: May 26, 2022, 07:32:22 AM »
I'm not reading anything into it, that's how English works.
Cason does not say Murray was sat at one board and Henslee was sat at another.
They were sat at the same radio board.

Cason didn’t say anything about Murray or Henslee at all. Or the radio dispatchers. Regardless, she didn’t say that the people sitting at this singular board were close enough to see each other’s clocks. Or hear each other. If they could, why have separate clocks in the first place?

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Wrong. Bowles said the clocks "could" drift apart.

What do you mean “wrong”? That’s exactly what I said.

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You seem to believe just because Bowles said it "could" happen, that it "did" happen.

I never said that. All I said was that we don’t know how close they were to each other that day.

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And, if it did happen, it is possible neither dispatcher would notice it "right away", but immensely unlikely it wouldn't be noticed as the timestamps drifted further and further apart, until there was a five minute difference [ a difference Bowles never even hinted at].

You have no basis whatsoever to declare this “immensely unlikely”. More “common sense” in lieu of evidence?
« Last Edit: May 26, 2022, 07:34:26 AM by John Iacoletti »

 

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