Lee Oswald The Cop Killer

[Richard Smith]

He was evasive in both instances [...]

There is are no corroboration for any of your claims.

How often does this have to be explained to you?

You haven't "explained" anything.  It's clear you are having difficulty even understanding what is being discussed.  Walt suggested that Oswald was not evasive at the TSBD in the same way he appeared to be to Brewer.  If Oswald was the assassin, then his trip into the lunchroom was clearly an attempt to be evasive.  He wasn't thirsty and pausing for a soft drink after assassinating the president.  He was trying to avoid Baker and Truly who were coming up the stairs.  You are free to ignore the evidence and conclude that Oswald was not the assassin.   But if he was, then he his lunchroom diversion is clearly an attempt at evading the police.  Just as his sudden desire to go shoe shopping when the police were roaring up and down the road in front of Brewer's shop were an attempt at evasion.   They are entirely consistent actions for a guilty Oswald.  They are not  - as Walt stupidly suggests - inconsistent actions that somehow demonstrate Oswald's innocence.

[Matt Grantham]

Guinyard would be a better source had he mentioned this in '63/'64. Also would be helpful if Brownlow would submit a recording or transcript of the interview.

Wright's story doesn't corroborate Holan's. In her account, the police car in the driveway and the mystery man are moving towards the street immediately after the shooting. The mystery man walked up to Tippit as if to examine him, then slowly retreated with the police car back down the driveway.  In Wright's, the car is an old two-door parked on the street that mystery guy gets into and drives off in.

Interestingly enough, Wright's testimony parallels Jimmy Burt's. Burt claims that he and a friend, William A. Smith, were hanging out at Burt's brother's house on 9th and Denver. When they heard the shot, Smith and Burt got into Burt's '52 Ford and drove towards the wound of gunfire. They parked on the street just in front of Tippit's car, and Burt was able to see the gunman cross Patton. If Wright is correct, then Burt and his '52 Ford might be the guy he saw. But there are a couple of problems here. Will Smith's version is of the same story is very different. It starts at the apartment of Burt's father-in-law, at 505 E. 10th rather than 9th and Denver. There is also no car ride in Smith's version. Interestingly, 510 E 10th would have made Wright and Burt neighbors, but I figure Wright would have likely named Burt as the mystery man if he recognized him. Also coincidentally, Smith was a neighbor of Helen Markham's, and a friend of her son James.

Burt's story is here: http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/burt.htm
Smith's is here: http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/smith_w.htm

 No real disagreement in terms of the context and delayed testimony The only question that occurs to me is whether t his was their story right from the beginning but no researcher, or commission, was available to let them tell their tales Thanks for including the Burt story, I remember seeing that but had lost track of it

 

[Walt Cakebread]

Oswald was evasive in both instances.  In the TSBD instance, Oswald fled into the lunch room to evade the police coming up the stairs.   Baker saw him and pulled a gun on him.  At that point, there is nothing for Oswald to do except play it out.  What was he going to do at that point?  Climb behind the water cooler?  He does a similar thing outside Brewer's shoe store by turning away from the police cars on the road and trying to conceal himself.  That draws Brewer's attention as suspicious - which it was.  Are you claiming that Brewer was in on the fantasy plot?  It's difficult to understand how the conspirators pulled that off and ensured that Oswald was in the TT.

Are you claiming that Brewer was in on the fantasy plot?

Yes!!!  Absolutely.....   Brewer was waaaay too deeply involved to be accepted as a casual  shop keeper....  No shoe store manager would get involved and run the risk of being shot by a crazed gunman in a dark theater.  Brewer was involved.....

[Mitch Todd]

But you have NOT shown this with supporting evidence. You have just made an empty claim.

I did. It was in reply #872:

"If you doubt me about a .38 special version of the Colt 1911, you can look here:

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2014/06/13/38-special-colt-1911/

[For that matter: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smith_%26_Wesson_Model_52]"

For instance, "In 1961 Smith & Wesson Model introduced the Model 52 as a match-grade target pistol derived from the Smith & Wesson Model 39. It was chambered in .38 Special Wadcutter for the sport of Bullseye shooting." Which part "1961" did you not understand?

[Mitch Todd]

What is foolish is to think anything that you posted supports your claim regarding the JDT murder. Show me which automatic pistols fired .38 Special revolver cartridges in 1963. Well? I am still waiting.

To commemorate your repeating yourself, I will also repeat myself, mostly just to rub it in:

I did. It was in reply #872:

"If you doubt me about a .38 special version of the Colt 1911, you can look here:

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2014/06/13/38-special-colt-1911/

[For that matter: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smith_%26_Wesson_Model_52]"

For instance, "in 1961 Smith & Wesson Model introduced the Model 52 as a match-grade target pistol derived from the Smith & Wesson Model 39. It was chambered in .38 Special Wadcutter for the sport of Bullseye shooting." Which part "1961" did you not understand?

[John Mytton]

This isn't evidence for your claim as no wadcutter was mentioned. Furthermore, in case you haven't figured it out your stance suggests that an automatic was used, but your beloved WC never said that LHO ever used an automatic pistol.

You put yourself in a no-win situation. Hurry up as lifeboats are filling up. 🚣

The shells that Oswald himself were seen discarding were exclusively matched to the same weapon that Oswald was arrested with.


The eyewitnesses who positively identified Oswald and confirmed he was carrying a gun

Mr. BALL. Which way?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Towards Jefferson, right across that way.
Mr. DULLES. Did he have the pistol in his hand at this time?
Mrs. MARKHAM. He had the gun when I saw him.


Mr. BELIN - All right. Now, you said you saw the man with the gun throw the shells?
Mr. BENAVIDES - Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN - Well, did you see the man empty his gun?
Mr. BENAVIDES - That is what he was doing. He took one out and threw it

Mr. BALL. And what did you see the man doing?
Mrs. DAVIS. Well, first off she went to screaming before I had paid too much attention to him, and pointing at him, and he was, what I thought, was emptying the gun.
Mr. BALL. He had a gun in his hand?
Mrs. DAVIS. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Did you see anything else as you heard her screaming?
Mrs. DAVIS. Well, we saw Oswald. We didn't know it was Oswald at the time. We saw that boy cut across the lawn emptying the shells out of the gun.

Mr. BALL. And how was he holding the gun?
Mr. CALLAWAY. We used to say in the Marine Corps in a raised pistol position.


Mr. BALL. What did you see him doing?
Mr. GUINYARD. He came through there running and knocking empty shells out of his pistol and he had it up just like this with his hand.
Mr. BALL. With which hand?
Mr. GUINYARD. With his right hand; just kicking them out.
Mr. BALL. He had it up?


Mr. B.M. PATTERSON, 4635 Hartford Street, Dallas, Texas, currently employed by Wyatt's Cafeteria, 2647 South Lancaster, Dallas, Texas, advised he was present at the used car lot of JOHNNY REYNOLDS' on the afternoon of November 22, 1963.

PATTERSON advised that at approximately 1:30 PM, he was standing on JONNY REYNOLDS' used car lot together with L.J. LEWIS and HAROLD RUSSELL when they heard shots coming from the vicinity of 10th and Patton Avenue, Dallas, Texas. A minute or so later they observed a white male approximately 30 years of age, running south on Patton Avenue, carrying what appeared to be a revolver in his hand and was obviously trying to reload same while running.


Mr. LIEBELER. Did you see this man's face that had the gun in his hand?
Mr.REYNOLDS. Very good.

HAROLD RUSSELL, employee, Johnny Reynolds Used Car Lot, 500 Jefferson Street, Dallas, Texas, advised that on the afternoon of November 22, 1963, he was standing on the lot of Reynolds Used Cars together with L.J. LEWIS and PAT PATTERSON, at which time they heard shots come from the vicinity of Patton and Tenth Street, and a few seconds later they observed a young white man running south on Patton Avenue carrying a pistol or revolver which the individual was attempting to either reload or place in his belt line.


Mr. BELIN. Did he have anything in his hand?
Mr. SCOGGINS. He had a pistol in his left hand.

Jack Tatum
Next. this man with a gun in his hand ran toward the back of the squad car, but instead of running away he stepped into the street and shot the police officer who was lying in the street.

The Police Officers who were confronted with the murdering Oswald.

Mr. McDONALD - My left hand, at this point.
Mr. BALL - And had he withdrawn the pistol
Mr. McDONALD - He was drawing it as I put my hand.
Mr. BALL - From his waist?
Mr. McDONALD - Yes, sir.


Mr. BELIN. When you saw Oswald's hand by his belt, which hand did you see then?
Mr. WALKER. He had ahold of the handle of it.
Mr. BELIN. Handle of what?
Mr. WALKER. The revolver.
Mr. BELIN. Was there a revolver there?
Mr. WALKER. Yes; there was.

Mr. HUTSON. McDonald was at this time simultaneously trying to hold this person's right hand. Somehow this person moved his right hand to his waist, and I saw a revolver come out, and McDonald was holding on to it with his right hand, and this gun was waving up toward the back of the seat like this.

Oswald even admitted carrying his revolver.

Mr. STERN - Was he asked whether he was carrying a pistol at the time he was in the Texas Theatre?
Mr. BOOKHOUT - Yes; that was brought up. He admitted that he was carrying a pistol at the time he was arrested.


Mr. McCLOY. Was it a sharpshooter's or a marksman's? There are two different types, you know.
Mr. HOSTY. I believe it was a sharpshooter, sir. He then told Captain Fritz that he had been living at 1026 North Beckley, that is in Dallas, Tex., at 1026 North Beckley under the name O. H. Lee and not under his true name.
Oswald admitted that he was present in the Texas School Book Depository Building on the 22d of November 1963, where he had been employed since the 15th of October. Oswald told Captain Fritz that he was a laborer in this building and had access to the entire building. It had offices on the first and second floors with storage on third, fourth, fifth and sixth floors.
Oswald told Captain Fritz that he went to lunch at approximately noon on the 22d of November, ate his lunch in the lunchroom, and had gone and gotten a Coca Cola from the Coca Cola machine to have with his lunch. He claimed that he was in the lunchroom at the time President Kennedy passed the building.
He was asked why he left the School Book Depository that day, and he stated that in all the confusion he was certain that there would be no more work for the rest of the day, that everybody was too upset, there was too much confusion, so he just decided that there would be no work for the rest of the day and so he went home. He got on a bus and went home. He went to his residence on North Beckley, changed his clothes, and then went to a movie.
Captain Fritz asked him if he always carried a pistol when he went to the movie, and he said he carried it because he felt like it. He admitted that he did have a pistol on him at the time of his arrest, in this theatre, in the Oak Cliff area of Dallas. He further admitted that he had resisted arrest and had received a bump and a cut as a result of his resisting of arrest. He then denied that he had killed Officer Tippit or President Kennedy.


Mr. BALL. What did he say?
Mr. FRITZ. He told me he went over and caught a bus and rode the bus to North Beckley near where he lived and went by home and changed clothes and got his pistol and went to the show. I asked him why he took his pistol and he said, "Well, you know about a pistol; I just carried it." Let's see if I asked him anything else right that minute. That is just about it.



JohnM

[Mitch Todd]

This isn't evidence for your claim as no wadcutter was mentioned. Furthermore, in case you haven't figured it out your stance suggests that an automatic was used, but your beloved WC never said that LHO ever used an automatic pistol.

You put yourself in a no-win situation. Hurry up as lifeboats are filling up. 🚣

A wadcutter is simply a kind of bullet. A .38 special wadcutter is still a .38 special, and is still fired from a .38 special cartridge case. Claiming that a .38 special wadcutter isn't really a .38 special is like saying a .38 special FMJ round isn't a .38 special, which is stupid where it's not ignorant.

Hill only had empty cases ("shells"); he wouldn't have known what kind of bullet had been fired from them. Wadcutter cases generally don't have any distinctive marks on them to easily differentiate them from other types of .38 special rounds. I wouldn't be surprised if some manufacturers had a particular code letter(s) to distinguish different bullets within a caliber, but I doubt Hill would know all (or maybe even any)  manufacturer's special codes. There might even be someone who actually puts something fairly easy to decipher, like "WAD," on the case, but it's definitely not common practice. I'll even throw in images of wadcutters, showing what's engraved on the base. Note that I've included examples from Remington, Winchester, and Federal, the big three among US ammunition manufacturers.