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Author Topic: Lee Oswald The Cop Killer  (Read 109301 times)

Offline Matt Grantham

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Re: Lee Oswald The Cop Killer
« Reply #700 on: June 20, 2018, 05:06:58 AM »
About Holan and Tatum....

Did Brownlow ever check Holan's bona fides? By that, I mean was he able to determine that she actually lived at that address at the time? Any latter-day witness "find" needs to be treated with a bit of caution, and no one else ever reported either the extra squad car in the driveway, nor the guy walking out to Tippit.

Which brings me to Tatum. He was supposedly driving by Tippit's at the time of the shooting, but no one else remembered a car doing so at the time.

 Yes the driveway between 404 and 410 I cannot really respond whether it was proven she lived at the apartment Here is a better quote on Guinyard


 Mrs. Holan?s account of a second police car is supported by the comments of Sam Guinyard, who told Brownlow in 1970 that he saw a police car in the alley shortly after the police shooting. The man in the driveway was apparently also seen by others: a resident of the neighborhood, who wishes to remain anonymous, told Prof Pulte, in 1990, that he had heard about a man in the driveway who approached Tippit?s car.

Frank Wright, who lived half a block east of the shooting, told reporter Earl Golz that he saw two men involved in the crime. But that was a belated addition to his earlier account of seeing one man drive off in a car. To Golz he mentioned another man fleeing on foot.

...independent researchers George and Patricia Nash ...in 1964... reported Wright telling them that after hearing the shots, he came out of his home at 501 East Tenth and saw Tippit hit the ground and roll over after being shot. Wright said he saw a man standing near Tippit, not holding a gun but wearing a  long coat (contrary to most other witnesses' description of a fleeing man wearing a light jacket), run away and drive off, alone, in a 'grey, little old coupe. It was about a 1950-51, maybe a Plymouth'.


 
« Last Edit: June 20, 2018, 05:24:06 AM by Matt Grantham »

Offline Walt Cakebread

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Re: Lee Oswald The Cop Killer
« Reply #701 on: June 20, 2018, 01:35:18 PM »
Matt,

Have you noticed this....

Mr. BELIN - I want to take you back to November 22, 1963. This was the day that President Kennedy was assassinated. How did you find out about the assassination, Mr. Brewer?
Mr. BREWER - We were listening to a transistor radio there in the store, just listening to a regular radio program, and they broke in with the bulletin that the President had been shot. And from then, that is all there was. We listened to all of the events.
Mr. BELIN - Did you hear over the radio that the President had died?
Mr. BREWER - I heard a rumor. They said that----one of the Secret Service men said that the President had died, and said that was just a rumor.
Mr. BELIN - Do you remember hearing anything else over the radio concerning anything that happened that afternoon?
Mr. BREWER - Well, they kept reconstructing what had happened and what they had heard, and they talked about it in general. There wasn't too much to talk about. They didn't have all the facts, and just repeated them mostly. And they said a patrolman had been shot in Oak Cliff.


Surely BELIN missed the "we", so who is "we".

Brewer must have left them behind when following the likely armed suspect cop killer into a dark movie theater...

As I recall Brewer originally said that he was talking with a friend in the shoe store at the time he saw a "suspicious acting man" ( What does a "suspicious acting man" look like???) looking in the window of the store.  Brewer said he stepped outside to watch the "suspicious acting man"and then followed him up to the Texas Theater after he saw the man enter the theater.   Then he went back and locked up his store before going back to the theater.....

The whole story that Brewer spews sounds like a crock..........

Offline Matt Grantham

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Re: Lee Oswald The Cop Killer
« Reply #702 on: June 20, 2018, 02:33:36 PM »
 Armstrong claims that he knows of the Tippit shooting And Tippit's friend in the store is Tommy Rowe, an apparently close associated of Ruby, and whom takes credit for identifying Oswald in the theater Stuff you guys obviously know already, but maybe somebody reading does not

Offline Richard Smith

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Re: Lee Oswald The Cop Killer
« Reply #703 on: June 20, 2018, 02:59:07 PM »
As I recall Brewer originally said that he was talking with a friend in the shoe store at the time he saw a "suspicious acting man" ( What does a "suspicious acting man" look like???) looking in the window of the store.  Brewer said he stepped outside to watch the "suspicious acting man"and then followed him up to the Texas Theater after he saw the man enter the theater.   Then he went back and locked up his store before going back to the theater.....

The whole story that Brewer spews sounds like a crock..........

When police cars are roaring up and down the road with sirens blaring most people will look toward them not duck away and try to hide (i.e. act suspiciously).   Are you suggesting there is something sinister about Brewer - a random shoe salesman that Oswald encountered?  LOL  I guess everyone in Dallas was part of the plot except for old Lee who was just going about his business like Mr. Magoo in complete bliss.  I do wonder how the fantasy conspirators knew in advance which citizens Oswald would encounter that day and convince them to lie or act in a way contrary to his interest.  They must have had Nostradamus-type abilities.

Online Mitch Todd

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Re: Lee Oswald The Cop Killer
« Reply #704 on: June 20, 2018, 08:07:02 PM »
I'm glad I didn't cause any concern.

I'll take your word for it.

However, in all the excitement, you missed the point which was: Why would Hill (or whoever it was) associate a .38 special with an automatic weapon, even stressing the point using "rather than"?

Exactly what on a .38 special "indicates" they were fired from an automatic?

How about the shells having AUTO stamped on them?

Already discussed half of it. See what happens when you sleep through lectures? If they had 'AUTO" (or "ACP") stamped on them, then he would have said that the gunman had a ".38 automatic" not an "automatic .38." Caliber always comes first, followed by whatever cartridge specifier. If nothing follows the .38, it's generally assumed to be a .38 special, since the great majority of .38 caliber weapons made in the 20th century were .38 specials.*

Anyway, pile up your pillows and feel free to fluff, another lecture ahead:

What Hill said was, "The shells at the scene indicate that the suspect is armed with an automatic .38, rather than a pistol." There are two things in that sentence telling me that he's talking about .38 special ammo. I've just mentioned the first. The second is his feeling the need to explicitly differentiate the "automatic" from a "pistol." No one said that Tippit's killer used a rifle, shotgun, machine gun, sub-machinegun, etc, which rules out the "automatic" being anything other than a pistol. So what did Hill mean when he used "pistol?" It wasn't "automatic pistol;" otherwise, Hill would effectively be saying "armed with an [automatic pistol], rather than [an automatic pistol]," which is nonsensical. That reduces the possibilities to a revolver, a derringer, a single-shot pistol, and a pepperbox, and the latter three are pretty much no-go for various reasons. We're left with Hill saying "The shells at the scene indicate that the suspect is armed with an automatic .38, rather than a [revolver]." So why would he have felt the need to specify that the gun was an automatic and not a revolver? Well, if the shells he had were from a cartridge generally associated with revolvers, and he wanted to avoid confusion. And .38 special was easily the most common .38 out there. So much so --and I repeat myself in case folks can't hear over the snoring-- that saying ".38" by itself is synonymous with saying ".38 special"

The question is then, why did Hill think that the gunman was armed with an automatic? Been over this, too, but will rehash it in case you slept through that one. Hill would later say that he thought the killer used an automatic because of the way the shells were spread out. Personally, I think that the witness statement that the perp had a ".32 dark finish automatic," which had already been broadcast over the radio. Since no one other than Tippit had was ever closer to the gun than 20-30 feet, I doubt that Hill would have put much credence in the caliber being ID'd from a distance. So, he's left with a description of a small, dark  finish auto pistol, the .38 shells, and no second gunman or second pistol. Ergo, "automatic .38 [special] rather than a [revolver]"

The next time you are in a fancy restaurant, you will jump up on the table and do the funky chicken

OK, wake up now.
 
« Last Edit: June 20, 2018, 11:08:41 PM by Mitch Todd »

Online Mitch Todd

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Re: Lee Oswald The Cop Killer
« Reply #705 on: June 21, 2018, 03:20:31 AM »
Yes the driveway between 404 and 410 I cannot really respond whether it was proven she lived at the apartment Here is a better quote on Guinyard


 Mrs. Holan?s account of a second police car is supported by the comments of Sam Guinyard, who told Brownlow in 1970 that he saw a police car in the alley shortly after the police shooting. The man in the driveway was apparently also seen by others: a resident of the neighborhood, who wishes to remain anonymous, told Prof Pulte, in 1990, that he had heard about a man in the driveway who approached Tippit?s car.

Frank Wright, who lived half a block east of the shooting, told reporter Earl Golz that he saw two men involved in the crime. But that was a belated addition to his earlier account of seeing one man drive off in a car. To Golz he mentioned another man fleeing on foot.

...independent researchers George and Patricia Nash ...in 1964... reported Wright telling them that after hearing the shots, he came out of his home at 501 East Tenth and saw Tippit hit the ground and roll over after being shot. Wright said he saw a man standing near Tippit, not holding a gun but wearing a  long coat (contrary to most other witnesses' description of a fleeing man wearing a light jacket), run away and drive off, alone, in a 'grey, little old coupe. It was about a 1950-51, maybe a Plymouth'.

Guinyard would be a better source had he mentioned this in '63/'64. Also would be helpful if Brownlow would submit a recording or transcript of the interview.

Wright's story doesn't corroborate Holan's. In her account, the police car in the driveway and the mystery man are moving towards the street immediately after the shooting. The mystery man walked up to Tippit as if to examine him, then slowly retreated with the police car back down the driveway.  In Wright's, the car is an old two-door parked on the street that mystery guy gets into and drives off in.

Interestingly enough, Wright's testimony parallels Jimmy Burt's. Burt claims that he and a friend, William A. Smith, were hanging out at Burt's brother's house on 9th and Denver. When they heard the shot, Smith and Burt got into Burt's '52 Ford and drove towards the wound of gunfire. They parked on the street just in front of Tippit's car, and Burt was able to see the gunman cross Patton. If Wright is correct, then Burt and his '52 Ford might be the guy he saw. But there are a couple of problems here. Will Smith's version is of the same story is very different. It starts at the apartment of Burt's father-in-law, at 505 E. 10th rather than 9th and Denver. There is also no car ride in Smith's version. Interestingly, 510 E 10th would have made Wright and Burt neighbors, but I figure Wright would have likely named Burt as the mystery man if he recognized him. Also coincidentally, Smith was a neighbor of Helen Markham's, and a friend of her son James.

Burt's story is here: http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/burt.htm
Smith's is here: http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/smith_w.htm


« Last Edit: June 21, 2018, 03:24:00 AM by Mitch Todd »

Offline Walt Cakebread

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Re: Lee Oswald The Cop Killer
« Reply #706 on: June 21, 2018, 01:38:17 PM »
When police cars are roaring up and down the road with sirens blaring most people will look toward them not duck away and try to hide (i.e. act suspiciously).   Are you suggesting there is something sinister about Brewer - a random shoe salesman that Oswald encountered?  LOL  I guess everyone in Dallas was part of the plot except for old Lee who was just going about his business like Mr. Magoo in complete bliss.  I do wonder how the fantasy conspirators knew in advance which citizens Oswald would encounter that day and convince them to lie or act in a way contrary to his interest.  They must have had Nostradamus-type abilities.

When police cars are roaring up and down the road with sirens blaring most people will look toward them not duck away and try to hide (i.e. act suspiciously).

Lee Oswald wasn't trying to hide when Officer Marrion Baker confronted him in the second floor lunchroom.....He showed no sign of fear nor did he make any attempt to hide or be evasive.....

And yet you are foolish enough to believe that it was Lee Oswald who Brewer claimed he saw "acting suspicious"...

If... I say IF.... Brewer saw a man, whom he through his powers of reading peoples actions, and minds, was actually Lee Oswald ..... Then explain to me why Lee would have been  being evasive and duck away from a police car that was passing by at high speed ( a time when the driver would have been concentrating on his driving and not observing
shoppers looking in shop windows) When he exhibited none of that behavior in the lunchroom.    ????



Offline Richard Smith

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Re: Lee Oswald The Cop Killer
« Reply #707 on: June 21, 2018, 02:14:07 PM »
When police cars are roaring up and down the road with sirens blaring most people will look toward them not duck away and try to hide (i.e. act suspiciously).

Lee Oswald wasn't trying to hide when Officer Marrion Baker confronted him in the second floor lunchroom.....He showed no sign of fear nor did he make any attempt to hide or be evasive.....

And yet you are foolish enough to believe that it was Lee Oswald who Brewer claimed he saw "acting suspicious"...

If... I say IF.... Brewer saw a man, whom he through his powers of reading peoples actions, and minds, was actually Lee Oswald ..... Then explain to me why Lee would have been  being evasive and duck away from a police car that was passing by at high speed ( a time when the driver would have been concentrating on his driving and not observing
shoppers looking in shop windows) When he exhibited none of that behavior in the lunchroom.    ????

Oswald was evasive in both instances.  In the TSBD instance, Oswald fled into the lunch room to evade the police coming up the stairs.   Baker saw him and pulled a gun on him.  At that point, there is nothing for Oswald to do except play it out.  What was he going to do at that point?  Climb behind the water cooler?  He does a similar thing outside Brewer's shoe store by turning away from the police cars on the road and trying to conceal himself.  That draws Brewer's attention as suspicious - which it was.  Are you claiming that Brewer was in on the fantasy plot?  It's difficult to understand how the conspirators pulled that off and ensured that Oswald was in the TT.

Offline Richard Smith

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Re: Lee Oswald The Cop Killer
« Reply #708 on: June 21, 2018, 03:27:51 PM »
Will you ever stop lying?

Baker left Oswald (if he ever was there) because he cooperated.

Brewer's story is fully uncorroborated.

Try following along for once.  Walt asked why Oswald acted differently at the TSBD than he did outside the shoe store.  The answer is that he didn't.  He was evasive in both instances by trying to hide in the lunchroom and ducking away from the street in front of Brewer's shoe store.  In both instances he drew the attention of someone as being suspicious (i.e. Baker and Brewer).  Baker only allowed him to go on because Truly vouched for him as an employee. 

Offline Richard Smith

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Re: Lee Oswald The Cop Killer
« Reply #709 on: June 21, 2018, 03:55:26 PM »
He was evasive in both instances [...]

There is are no corroboration for any of your claims.

How often does this have to be explained to you?

You haven't "explained" anything.  It's clear you are having difficulty even understanding what is being discussed.  Walt suggested that Oswald was not evasive at the TSBD in the same way he appeared to be to Brewer.  If Oswald was the assassin, then his trip into the lunchroom was clearly an attempt to be evasive.  He wasn't thirsty and pausing for a soft drink after assassinating the president.  He was trying to avoid Baker and Truly who were coming up the stairs.  You are free to ignore the evidence and conclude that Oswald was not the assassin.   But if he was, then he his lunchroom diversion is clearly an attempt at evading the police.  Just as his sudden desire to go shoe shopping when the police were roaring up and down the road in front of Brewer's shop were an attempt at evasion.   They are entirely consistent actions for a guilty Oswald.  They are not  - as Walt stupidly suggests - inconsistent actions that somehow demonstrate Oswald's innocence.

 

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